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1. The end times have ALWAYS been imminent. Every age has thought they were the last. No one has been right yet. And still, people persist with this unrealistic expectation.
2. OT "prophecy" is ONLY seen as such in retrospect. "Oh, look, this writing from years ago MUST refer to this event, therefore it PREDICTED it!" Hogwash. I can take all kinds of OT scripture that "predicted" the future and show how it failed. But those instances are discarded - "Oh, that wasn't prophecy, but this was!" In other words, we pick and choose what fits our preconceived and rigid ideas.
3. We can discount the OT completely and still find meaning in what Jesus taught. It simply takes rationalization. But I don't discount anything - I take it as it REALLY is - the record of man's search for meaning, faith, and God in his life - passed down verbally at first, changed over and over through the centuries, written. copied, edited and changed more, until we have what we think now is the "real" thing. The problem is that most people do not WANT to know the truth about who wrote what, when, how, where, and why. The mythology is far more comfortable and easy - like microwaved food instead of actual cooking from scratch.
4. Read Matthew's references to the OT sometime and see how he got some of the quotes WRONG or changed them to meet his needs. Today, we call it "spin." Fascinating stuff.
I will always teach people to THINK more than follow blindly. Child-like faith means to be like a child in school, willing to learn, instead of a stubborn adult who thinks he knows the answers before the questions are asked. It does not mean to be and to remain ignorant as some people wish.
1. The end times have ALWAYS been imminent. Every age has thought they were the last. No one has been right yet. And still, people persist with this unrealistic expectation.
2. OT "prophecy" is ONLY seen as such in retrospect. "Oh, look, this writing from years ago MUST refer to this event, therefore it PREDICTED it!" Hogwash. I can take all kinds of OT scripture that "predicted" the future and show how it failed. But those instances are discarded - "Oh, that wasn't prophecy, but this was!" In other words, we pick and choose what fits our preconceived and rigid ideas.
3. We can discount the OT completely and still find meaning in what Jesus taught. It simply takes rationalization. But I don't discount anything - I take it as it REALLY is - the record of man's search for meaning, faith, and God in his life - passed down verbally at first, changed over and over through the centuries, written. copied, edited and changed more, until we have what we think now is the "real" thing. The problem is that most people do not WANT to know the truth about who wrote what, when, how, where, and why. The mythology is far more comfortable and easy - like microwaved food instead of actual cooking from scratch.
4. Read Matthew's references to the OT sometime and see how he got some of the quotes WRONG or changed them to meet his needs. Today, we call it "spin." Fascinating stuff.
I will always teach people to THINK more than follow blindly. Child-like faith means to be like a child in school, willing to learn, instead of a stubborn adult who thinks he knows the answers before the questions are asked. It does not mean to be and to remain ignorant as some people wish.
You do know that your stock as a TRUE Christian has gone way, way, way down, if not non-existent.
Now, speaking of the writer of Matthew, I've shown he was not above plagiarism (something common in those days without the checks and balances we have in place nowadays) and taking free license to abuse the Old Testament scriptures to promote his bias. I've presented a few examples already, but here is yet another.
Herod is said to be living in fear that some child, predicted by the prophets, was born and would rise up to take his throne (where have we heard this a billion times before?). Herod, according to the writer of Matthew, decides to take a proactive approach and slaughters all of Bethlehem's infants two years old and younger. This cruel act is recorded by no one other than the writer of Matthew. Josephus, the Jewish historian who wrote at great lengths about Herod and many of his outrageous acts, does not make ANY mention of this, neither any Roman or Greek writers nor any other Jewish writers of the era. Not even the other Gospels mention it.
As if not bad enough that he is the only one making any mention of this nie little fable, he actually had the audacity to claim that Herod's act was actually a fulfillment of an alleged prophecy in the book of Jeremiah. He quotes Jeremiah 31:15:
Thus says the LORD:
“ A voice was heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children,
Refusing to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more.”
End of story, right? Well for lot' of Christians it is. The verse does not even mention the alleged act of Herod. The Ramah in question was probably a town in the tribe of Benjamin where the Israelite matriarch, Rachel, was buried. Then if we continue to read the chapter, the writer of Jeremiah is speaking of a prediction foretelling the return of scattered Israelites hauled off into exile by foreign nations while adding comfort to the wailing land (represented as Rachel) that her exiled children will one day come back home. To claim this was speaking of some alleged act 600 years in the future was a dramatic stretch and blatant disregard to present anything resembling the truth.
You do know that your stock as a TRUE Christian has gone way, way, way down, if not non-existent.
By your definition, of course, which puts you where in the scheme of things?
I could, of course, say the same of you, but it serves no purpose. I would rather that people keep searching and learning than to pigeon-hole them.
I believe a TRUE Christian is one who actually learns what Jesus said and believed using all sources, Biblical and not, as well as understanding History, culture, language, and political influences of that day in that part of the world. The FALSE Christian is the one who reads only the English translation with which he/she is comfortable and then believes he/she has THE answer. More's the pity. It is how Jim Jones got people to drink the Kool Aid.
It is a great field to study, but one must never restrict oneself to just an English Bible... God speaks many more languages than that...
I believe a TRUE Christian is one who actually learns what Jesus said and believed using all sources, Biblical and not, as well as understanding History, culture, language, and political influences of that day in that part of the world. The FALSE Christian is the one who reads only the English translation with which he/she is comfortable and then believes he/she has THE answer. More's the pity. It is how Jim Jones got people to drink the Kool Aid.
Do you just believe or does it matter HOW and WHAT you believe and that what you believe is carefully analyzed, rightly divided, so to speak, and objective?
Yes it matters, that's why I believe.
You honestly think these arguments are something new?
Seriously.
Anyone with an inkling of a desire to know whether there's much meat to this can seek Christian guidance and obtain answers to these things....just like the ones already provided here and in other threads.
It's not me or even Christians under attack here, it's God's Word.
It stood before folks like you and Father John were even born, and it'll still be standing after you realize you were wrong.
By your definition, of course, which puts you where in the scheme of things?
I could, of course, say the same of you, but it serves no purpose. I would rather that people keep searching and learning than to pigeon-hole them.
I believe a TRUE Christian is one who actually learns what Jesus said and believed using all sources, Biblical and not, as well as understanding History, culture, language, and political influences of that day in that part of the world. The FALSE Christian is the one who reads only the English translation with which he/she is comfortable and then believes he/she has THE answer. More's the pity. It is how Jim Jones got people to drink the Kool Aid.
It is a great field to study, but one must never restrict oneself to just an English Bible... God speaks many more languages than that...
I said it with tongue planted in cheek. I am not a Christian. I am an atheist/apostate to the Christian, but more along the lines of an agnostic to the academia. I just happen to love the study history and religion and how one has influenced and shaped the other.
By the way, someone's probably muttering these words about you as sure fulfillment these are the End Times:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...
- Timothy 4:1
With this to fall back on, they don't have to listen to any facts you provide. Folks hate to be confused with that stuff you know. It's far lazier to just believe than to study.
Anyone with an inkling of a desire to know whether there's much meat to this can seek Christian guidance and obtain answers to these things....just like the ones already provided here and in other threads.
I've known and seen just about all of them and frankly, they are VERY weak. Without verbal gymnastics and "faith" to magically makes words say what they are not saying, there's hardly solid ground to stand on.
My opinion, of course, will simply set people of a different mind set off the deep end. What purpose does it serve? He is who I believe him to be. What matters is how he and God speak in my heart and what they say I should share with the world.
It is not a simple answer, but Jesus is not the Jesus that Saul invented. That may be shocking to some, but it is simply true. He is the Jesus of whom his brother, James, wrote (although the Epistle of James we have today is not likely by the same person without substantive revision at later dates). But we can glean some of what the brother of Jesus said from Acts and from Josephus. And it is clear that the Jesus of whom they spoke was not the sacrificial lamb who brings salvation by his death that Paul created.
Created? Yes, Paul never met Jesus, but he was raised in Tarsus where Mithraism was a strong religious practice - where being washed in the blood of the god brought salvation.
Finding the real Jesus is quite a challenge because he is in the gospels, but the gospels are also heavily tainted with the Pauline religion. Gleaning the true Jesus takes work.
Jesus is also found in the Nag Hammadi texts, particularly the Gospel of Thomas which predates any of the other gospels, including Mark (the earliest canonical gospel). And Mark - the earliest gospel in our Bible today, was initially anonymous (the name Mark added at a later date) and it originally ended with Jesus laid in the tomb and the tomb found empty - no resurrection stories whatsoever.
And so, you see, Jesus the Christ is a more difficult figure than the mixed mythologies approved in the 4th century (when your Bible was finalized) may paint. I urge people to dig deeper. Then you tell me who Jesus was and is and will be. I already know the orthodox ideas.
I've known and seen just about all of them and frankly, they are VERY weak. Without verbal gymnastics and "faith" to magically makes words say what they are not saying, there's hardly solid ground to stand on.
That's wild.
That's exactly what yours are too!
Weird isn't it.
Almost like there's more to it than verbal gymnastics and human wisdom
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