Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If one has found Christ in their heart, it is no secret---our purpose is to be servants just as He was.
The parable of the Ten Virgins is the example. Many who claim to be christian see little depth in it. For them it is about "looking to what is to come." But the purpose was to tell people to pay attention to the NOW, not the later. It will arrive when it arrives, but we have only the NOW in which to fulfill the purpose God put us on earth for. Five of the virgins were wise enough to do the "work" involved in bringing oil for their lamps. The others came expecting accolades for just showing up.
I disagree that it is the single most important issue we face. It's not ours to face. God faces it in our place. Solves a lot of eschatological problems when we aren't concerned about where we are going to go, but rather how we can serve God today by helping our fellow man.
And the Bible certainly contains God's Word--as do many, many things in our world. You dismiss the Bible as easily as fundamentalists dismiss the world in which they live.
He who has eyes to see shall see, and he who has ears to hear will hear.
All right. I think that's a fair balanced answer. I do dismiss the Bible, too hastily most of the time. But that's only because I've not found anything to believe in within it. If other do more power to them. They can see what I cannot. Like this hell issue. I see Mary K Baxter finding the portals to hell and having more mercy in her little finger for the suffering there than Jesus in his entire body. On the other hand I see Rob Bell finding within the Bible's pages a universal forgiveness that Baxter, bless her greedy for green, twisted little heart could never see. And then I see John Stott determining that the only punishment he finds in the Bible for the wicked dead is annihiliation. And there may be half a dozen different mixed flavors in between those three such as eternal punishment and then annihilation and varying degrees of punishment before being thoroughly cleansed and allowed into heaven ala Paul (the "cleansed as though by fire" passage).
So honestly some find a truth--some sort of a firm answer to al this in the Bible while all I find is what I've deccribed above. But you're right. It's not for us to know if that's what God has chosen. But it sure would help with the uncertainty if he hadn't.
All right. I think that's a fair balanced answer. I do dismiss the Bible, too hastily most of the time. But that's only because I've not found anything to believe in within it. If other do more power to them. They can see what I cannot. Like this hell issue. I see Mary K Baxter finding the portals to hell and having more mercy in her little finger for the suffering there than Jesus in his entire body. On the other hand I see Rob Bell finding within the Bible's pages a universal forgiveness that Baxter, bless her greedy for green, twisted little heart could never see. And then I see John Stott determining that the only punishment he finds in the Bible for the wicked dead is annihiliation. And there may be half a dozen different mixed flavors in between those three such as eternal punishment and then annihilation and varying degrees of punishment before being thoroughly cleansed and allowed into heaven ala Paul (the "cleansed as though by fire" passage).
So honestly some find a truth--some sort of a firm answer to al this in the Bible while all I find is what I've deccribed above. But you're right. It's not for us to know if that's what God has chosen. But it sure would help with the uncertainty if he hadn't.
If you need to know but don't, then that is an internal difficulty. If one thinks they know when in truth they don't, that's MORE of a problem.
There is absolutely no problem with doing the work God gave us in the here and NOW. It doesn't require the right theology, nor the right doctrines, nor the right amount of prayer. It just needs the right amount of commitment.
And Jesus said we have to commit it all--and that's why He warned we should count the cost of discipleship. It's easy to talk about heaven and hell--and the knowledge one way or another isn't an impetus to serve God despite what some "believers" like to say.
The hell on earth fundamentalists create for themselves is because they deny the cost of discipleship. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of my favorite pastor/theologians wrote The Cost of Discipleship. None of Bonhoeffer's books are easy to read as he frequently writes like a philosopher, but his message is oh, so deep.
My favorite quotes from The Cost of Discipleship:
Quote:
“When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.”
“Judging others makes us blind, whereas love is illuminating. By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are.”
----------
"the life of faith is nothing if not an unending struggle of the spirit with every available weapon against the flesh.”
-----------
“Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: 'Ye were bought at a price', and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us."
--------- “Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks' wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church's inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing. Since the cost was infinite, the possibilities of using and spending it are infinite."
“Discipleship is not an offer that man makes to Christ.”
"Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock."
Discipleship is about the DOING, not about the talking. It is not about heaven or hell. It is about doing the right thing every time and all the time right now where we are. That is the Christ I follow.
Costly grace is that grace by which a man so called leaves his nets and the seashore to travel an uncertain journey, being kind to all, welcoming to strangers (Syrians?), and puts the interests of others ahead of his own.
The first line I quoted from Bonhoeffer-- By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are"----is one that made a tremendous difference in how I view others.
Hell just isn't a question Christians who are disciples need to be concerned about one way or another. We should be too busy making grace count for everyone.
Have I done any good in the world today? Have I helped anyone in need?
Have I cheered up the sad and made someone feel glad?
If not, I have failed indeed.
Has anyone's burden been lighter today
Because I was willing to share?
Have the sick and the weary been helped on their way?
When they needed my help was I there?
(Chorus)
Then wake up and do something more
Than dream of your mansion above.
Doing good is a pleasure, a joy beyond measure,
A blessing of duty and love.
Real Christ followers ask the above questions of themselves daily. Religionists spend time on things that don't mean anything in the here and now.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 11-26-2015 at 12:07 AM..
All right. I think that's a fair balancedanswer. I do dismiss the Bible, too hastily most of the time. But that's onlybecause I've not found anything to believe in within it. If other do more powerto them. They can see what I cannot. Like this hell issue. I see Mary K Baxterfinding the portals to hell and having more mercy in her little finger for thesuffering there than Jesus in his entire body. On the other hand I see Rob Bellfinding within the Bible's pages a universal forgiveness that Baxter, bless hergreedy for green, twisted little heart could never see. And then I see JohnStott determining that the only punishment he finds in the Bible for the wickeddead is annihiliation. And there may be half a dozen different mixed flavors inbetween those three such as eternal punishment and then annihilation andvarying degrees of punishment before being thoroughly cleansed and allowed intoheaven ala Paul (the "cleansed as though by fire" passage).
So honestly some find a truth--some sort of a firm answer to al this in theBible while all I find is what I've deccribed above. But you're right. It's notfor us to know if that's what God has chosen. But it sure would help with theuncertainty if he hadn't.
Thrill, I think the question is “What do you see?”
That is whereGod wants to meet you.
Misty Edwards has a prophetic type song on one of her solo piano albums, about the virgins and the oil (…it was bundled with a One Thing conference album I bought a few years back). She likens the oil and the wise virgins to those who sought intimacy – the oil is, of course, symbolic of the Holy Spirit. She sings that the foolish virgins say ‘give us some of your oil’, but the wise virgins cannot – it’s not as simple as pouring oil from one cup into another.
You have to get it for yourself.
We should not be frightened of saying, “God, I need more of you”. Yes, it’s a dangerous, frightening prayer, but it’s what the Holy Spirit urges us to do. Our flesh life and works are dirty and stinking in comparison just to ‘being’ with Him. When you’ve been with Him, people take notice. …and the first thing many do after you’ve been with Abba, is push you away. J Once one understands how it works, it gets easier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
[/SIZE]
Apologies if I misunderstood. If you really don't believe in hell then youcan't be a true Christian because to be a Christian you mustbelieve there is a hell and that God is going to send unrepentant sinners there.You do believe that, don't you?
I’m a ‘partial’preterist (AD 70’er), Universal Reconciliationist, Christian (…who doesn’t likethe word Christian or Church – they are westernised separatist concepts – I haveJewish roots leanings – nothing ‘new’ started on the day of Pentecost). But, specifically with respect to hell:
When believers in Jesus (‘the overcomers’) see Him,they will be like Him.
For everyone else not in the above category, they carry on as ‘normal’, when they cross over to the other side. The major difference is that faith isn’t required anymore, to believe that God is. The purging is simply reaping the rewards of one’s own waywardness,until one repents and comes to Abba, through Jesus. I don’t pay much attention anymore to chronological timings as implied in scripture – the spirit realm 'doesn’t feel like' it works on chronological time, so ‘when’ the purging happens is not as important for me as it is for futurists / premillenialists, still expectant for a rapture. I lean to the idea that the purging is happening now both in the natural and the spiritual realm. There may yet be ‘future’ ages for us as we perceive it, in our small corner of what God has created, where God will be all in all at the ‘same time’ - Shalom.
Last edited by Age-enduring; 11-26-2015 at 01:05 AM..
I believe that all the devils and the fallen angels and demons should go there and wicked evil people should be part of that , but the rest who ignore the plan of Jesus who is sovereign over the living and the dead , but for the rest I would have mercy for them , and if they had to go then their spirits would die and be no more .......
Hi Sparrow and happy thanksgiving. That was a loaded statement by Jesus, even the wonderful sparrow is so highly valued that they do not fall to the ground without our heavenly father I knowing about it,so how much more are we valued by him?.
If you need to know but don't, then that is an internal difficulty. If one thinks they know when in truth they don't, that's MORE of a problem.
There is absolutely no problem with doing the work God gave us in the here and NOW. It doesn't require the right theology, nor the right doctrines, nor the right amount of prayer. It just needs the right amount of commitment.
And Jesus said we have to commit it all--and that's why He warned we should count the cost of discipleship. It's easy to talk about heaven and hell--and the knowledge one way or another isn't an impetus to serve God despite what some "believers" like to say.
The hell on earth fundamentalists create for themselves is because they deny the cost of discipleship. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of my favorite pastor/theologians wrote The Cost of Discipleship. None of Bonhoeffer's books are easy to read as he frequently writes like a philosopher, but his message is oh, so deep.
My favorite quotes from The Cost of Discipleship:
Discipleship is about the DOING, not about the talking. It is not about heaven or hell. It is about doing the right thing every time and all the time right now where we are. That is the Christ I follow.
Costly grace is that grace by which a man so called leaves his nets and the seashore to travel an uncertain journey, being kind to all, welcoming to strangers (Syrians?), and puts the interests of others ahead of his own.
The first line I quoted from Bonhoeffer-- By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are"----is one that made a tremendous difference in how I view others.
Hell just isn't a question Christians who are disciples need to be concerned about one way or another. We should be too busy making grace count for everyone.
Have I done any good in the world today? Have I helped anyone in need?
Have I cheered up the sad and made someone feel glad?
If not, I have failed indeed.
Has anyone's burden been lighter today
Because I was willing to share?
Have the sick and the weary been helped on their way?
When they needed my help was I there?
(Chorus)
Then wake up and do something more
Than dream of your mansion above.
Doing good is a pleasure, a joy beyond measure,
A blessing of duty and love.
Real Christ followers ask the above questions of themselves daily. Religionists spend time on things that don't mean anything in the here and now.
What I find good in the Bible are the admonishments to help others.
Each gospel writer it seems has something different to admonish readers to follow to find salvation. In John Jesus is warning everybody to believe on him to find salvation.
Quote:
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
For the writers of John helping others wasn't the priority. Best as I know Jesus never once verbally says give bread to the poor; give clothing to the naked. Because the priority in John was to make people believe Jesus was a deity, something Mark never even thought of doing.
That is why, to me, although the gospels have some good things to offer here and there, each has its own agenda and sometimes that agenda is ignoble.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
