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I have shown in the book of Esther where God is ready alter His plans if someone doesn't do what He tells them to do. The Bible shows that God wouldn't even need to even consider 'another source' if He knew every choice a person made.
Just saying, 'Yes it does...' shows nothing.
Man proposes, G-d disposes...[/quote]
I do love the Bible and I trust it completely...so do you have scriptures you'd like to show me? Otherwise it's your word vs the Word of God.
Just because the Bible corrected you doesn't make me arrogant. I have invited you to use the Bible to correct me. However, since you just wish to insult, fight and prove nothing from the Bible I will bow out now.
Not using foreknowledge for every single thing doesn't mean God is fallible. It means He allows people freewill. All outcomes are not set in stone, which they would be un-changeable if God had foreknowledge of every event. Because whatever God says will happen, it will happen. (Isaiah 55:11) Where does it say that God is fallible for giving people freewill in the Bible? Again, this is John Calvin's doctrine and the Bible shoots his doctrine full of holes. If John Calvin was right then their would be no need for a Bible or spiritual education. Why teach a person anything if God already knows if they will be righteous or wicked? The message of the Bible seems to indicate that God is selective with His power of foreknowledge and allows for choice.
Mordecai told Esther if she did go to the King to save her people then God would send another savior in her place. "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will come to the Jews from another source..." (Esther 4:14) So clearly God didn't know Esther's choice and was prepared to give 'deliverance to the Jews from another source' if Esther refused. True Jehovah does know all the possible choices a person can make but the Bible doesn't say that God knows what everyone's final choice will be.
Is God fully omnipotent, or isn't He? Is God fully omniscient, or isn't He? God having full foreknowledge of everything that you do before you do it doesn't change the fact that you have free will and made, or will make, all of those choices yourself. If you hold a glass object out from your body and release it, it becomes a free agent. And yet you have full knowledge of what is going to occur. If the glass object shatters when it hits the ground, you would not blame the glass object for that, would you? Would you blame gravity? NO! You would look to the cause. And since you knew exactly what would occur when you released the glass object, you are responsible.
You are one of the results of special creation. Satan however WAS SPECIALLY CREATED. God created Satan directly with His own hand. God knew exactly what Satan would become and what Satan would do when He created him. And He either got exactly the result He expected and intended to get, or He failed to get the result He expected and intended to get. Does your God fail?
To claim that infallible God created the source of evil but is not responsible for the evil that he fully knew He was creating is a logical fallacy.
In other words it's all false because you say so. That's what all these statement amounts to.
btw: correct, Luke was not one of the twelve ... he was a companion of Paul .... whom Paul did meet the living and resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus.
Things are either true or false based on the actual facts. Claiming that Luke was an apostle was a false claim. You weren't purposely lying. You believed it to be true at the time you claimed it. But you were wrong. It wasn't a false claim because I said so. It was a false claim because it conflicted with the actual facts.
By the same token, you believe that a corpse came back to life and flew away. A corpse does not come back and fly away just because you, or anyone else claims that it is so. Such a claim must necessarily conform to the actual facts. And all observation and experience indicates conclusively that a fully dead corpse CANNOT return to life and COULD NOT fly if it did. It's perfectly easy to claim such things to be true, but claims do not change the nature of what a corpse is capable of doing, or the requirements necessary to cause controlled flight. These things are perfectly easy to imagine, and thus are perfectly easy to claim to be true. But at the end of the day no actual flying reanimated corpses can be produced. Only imagined and claimed. And believed to be true by some, of course.
Is God fully omnipotent, or isn't He? Is God fully omniscient, or isn't He? God having full foreknowledge of everything that you do before you do it doesn't change the fact that you have free will and made, or will make, all of those choices yourself. If you hold a glass object out from your body and release it, it becomes a free agent. And yet you have full knowledge of what is going to occur. If the glass object shatters when it hits the ground, you would not blame the glass object for that, would you? Would you blame gravity? NO! You would look to the cause. And since you knew exactly what would occur when you released the glass object, you are responsible.
You are one of the results of special creation. Satan however WAS SPECIALLY CREATED. God created Satan directly with His own hand. God knew exactly what Satan would become and what Satan would do when He created him. And He either got exactly the result He expected and intended to get, or He failed to get the result He expected and intended to get. Does your God fail?
To claim that infallible God created the source of evil but is not responsible for the evil that he fully knew He was creating is a logical fallacy.
Omniscient, yes as he does know what is going on every second of the present and can recall every detail second of the past. He is also all-powerful and the Bible confirms this as well. However, it seems that you think that God's foretelling ability is like a engine that is always on with no way to turn it off. Thus making God a slave to His own foreknowledge.
But the Bible doesn't say that God's omniscient in every detail about everyone's entire future. Because as Isaiah points out, what God says that will come to be will come to be. Therefore if God knows already if we are going to wicked then it must come to pass. Because God is never wrong. We can't change it. So when you say the word 'fully', the Bible doesn't suggest that. Even though God could indeed turn us all into automatons by being fully omniscient even to our future, it appears according to the Bible that He doesn't. He give us a choice by not foretelling our choices. Because if God foretells it, that's it, it's a done deal. Only God can change it then. The Bible also shows that people and even entire nations have the ability to change their own coarse without God making the choice for them. Read Jonah the 3rd chapter.
Therefore to say that God foretold what Satan would do, means that God predestined Satan to commit evil. In turn this make God guilty of pushing evil into the world which contradicts the Bible that says God doesn't do evil deeds.
God didn't fail Adam and Eve. Satan, Adam and Eve failed God. There are millions (billions?) of creatures that didn't fail God and still have not. Jesus being one of them. I don't blame God for Satan's failures. Do you? Because if you say God knew Satan was going to all these horrible deeds but created Satan anyway, then you are putting blame on God for all the evil in the world. Or do you think God made a mistake to give creatures freedom to think for themselves.
You asked if my God, Jehovah, is a failure. Most certainly not. Even though some of His creations turned into failures on their own, decided not to listen or follow God's ways. God doesn't force anyone to love Him. A person forced to love someone is not love. Jehovah is still loving and will repair all the harm these rebels have done. In fact all the wicked we see today will one day cease and never happen again. (ISAIAH 65:17)
Where I do appreciate your own words. Perhaps you could use the Bible more to support your case.
Omniscient, yes as he does know what is going on every second of the present and can recall every detail second of the past. He is also all-powerful and the Bible confirms this as well. However, it seems that you think that God's foretelling ability is like a engine that is always on with no way to turn it off. Thus making God a slave to His own foreknowledge.
But the Bible doesn't say that God's omniscient in every detail about everyone's entire future. Because as Isaiah points out, what God says that will come to be will come to be. Therefore if God knows already if we are going to wicked then it must come to pass. Because God is never wrong. We can't change it. So when you say the word 'fully', the Bible doesn't suggest that. Even though God could indeed turn us all into automatons by being fully omniscient even to our future, it appears according to the Bible that He doesn't. He give us a choice by not foretelling our choices. Because if God foretells it, that's it, it's a done deal. Only God can change it then. The Bible also shows that people and even entire nations have the ability to change their own coarse without God making the choice for them. Read Jonah the 3rd chapter.
To deny God's omniscience is to accept God's fallibility. As you are apparently doing. If God created Satan and got anything other than exactly the result He expected to get GOD FAILED. A God who fails is a God that cannot be counted on. For example, suppose you made a commitment. But then when your time to keep your commitment arrived unforseencircumstance's forced you to fail to keep that commitment, even though you fully intended to keep that commitment when you made it. If God does not have full foreknowledge, He is subject to failing to keep His commitments because even He does not know future outcomes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316
Therefore to say that God foretold what Satan would do, means that God predestined Satan to commit evil. In turn this make God guilty of pushing evil into the world which contradicts the Bible that says God doesn't do evil deeds.
Not predestination. FOREKNOWLEDGE. Satan made all of the choices himself. But God knew all along what those choices would be. God did not directly cause Satan to make those choices. God ALLOWED Satan to make those choices. If God did not wish it to have been so, then it would NOT have been so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316
God didn't fail Adam and Eve. Satan, Adam and Eve failed God. There are millions (billions?) of creatures that didn't fail God and still have not. Jesus being one of them. I don't blame God for Satan's failures. Do you? Because if you say God knew Satan was going to all these horrible deeds but created Satan anyway, then you are putting blame on God for all the evil in the world. Or do you think God made a mistake to give creatures freedom to think for themselves.
God created Adam and Eve with His own hand, and got EXACTLY the result He intended to get. Any other conclusion would indicate that God FAILED to get the result He intended to get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316
You asked if my God, Jehovah, is a failure. Most certainly not. Even though some of His creations turned into failures on their own, decided not to listen or follow God's ways. God doesn't force anyone to love Him. A person forced to love someone is not love. Jehovah is still loving and will repair all the harm these rebels have done. In fact all the wicked we see today will one day cease and never happen again. (ISAIAH 65:17)
Isaiah 65:
[16] That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
[17] For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
First, allow me to point out that the author of Isaiah WAS NOT GOD. The passage is simply the author's way of saying to put the troubles of the past behind you and move on with the hope of a new day. Nor do I notice any mention of the wicked in these verses at all.
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 02-02-2016 at 02:39 PM..
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