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No it's not the norm. Your experience is obviously limited.
My experience stretches from Southern Baptist to Eastern Orthodox to Anglican across 30 years, attending every week and not just occasionally . No , my experience isn't limited and , yes , much of Christianity is based on fire insurance against Hell. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise .
My experience stretches from Southern Baptist to Eastern Orthodox to Anglican across 30 years, attending every week and not just occasionally . No , my experience isn't limited and , yes , much of Christianity is based on fire insurance against Hell. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise .
Assuming you are addressing me with this - I fear the Lord. You keep repeating this - but it is false.
Since you seem to know - what change am I afraid of? Who am I afraid of? What am I afraid of losing?
Please enlighten me since it is clear to you that I am totally unaware of how I carry myself.
It isn't false. It has been the subject of research--and some of it is quite old. And it is quite dangerous as well:
Quote:
Guilt and fear associated with religious beliefs have received little research attention. In a convenience sample of 100 adults, fear of punishment by God was significantly higher for fundamentalists protestants than for liberal protestants, or for those with a personal faith not associated with a religious organization.
The incident, as recalled by Jacques Chirac, finds our president (George Bush) citing apocalyptic Bible references to “Gog and Magog” as he sought French participation in the war. According to one source, Bush told Chirac that the looming war was “a confrontation willed by God.” Chirac was so puzzled that he asked for a report from an expert on religion. What he learned led the French president to regard his American counterpart as a religious fanatic.
-------- Bush’s frame of mind is frightening because it shows a leader bringing an extreme religious belief into a profound geopolitical crisis that required, instead, honest and careful evaluation. This is the problem with fundamentalist thinking. It swaps deliberation for supernatural concepts and, in the case of prophecy, encourages people to make decisions that help see their vision of the future fulfilled.
Richard Rohr says, “Fundamentalism is a huge mental game played by people terrified of inner experience. Those who don’t have full inner authority rely on external forms. The dualistic mind divides experiences, knowing everything by comparison: for instance, the good guys and bad guys”.
Fundamentalism at its most fundamental is fear. It is a merit/demerit system. It takes the forms of legalism and idolatry of its leaders. Rohr says, “Fundamentalism creates a system of words, bible quotes, and techniques for salvation that are supposedly certain, so that you can always knows the ground on which you stand and keep God on your side.” Just as Afghanistan and Iraq provide the impoverished breeding grounds for Muslim fundamentalism, America’s collapsing family system and absent or abusive fathers breeds Protestant fundamentalism.
People who are attracted to fundamentalism, Rohr states, “are suffering from a lack of masculine energy, a lack of union with the heavenly Father.”
The reason that we will never get to a time where there will not be fundamentalism is because fundamentalism has to do with a lack of human moral development. It is a reflection of immaturity, and unfortunately, to turn a phrase, you will always have the immature among you.
The real problem is not with the Bible, but with how we read it -- whether we read it like Jesus did as a vehicle to move us towards compassion, or read it like the Pharisees did in a spirit of unquestioning obedience that leads to hurt. In other words, the problem is not so much with the Bible as it is with people who are at a very low level of moral development which is characterized by black and white thinking and fear.
Fundamentalism isn’t an ideology, it’s a habit of thought patterns. Fundamentalism is based in fear. Fear of not being heard, fear of being invalidated, fear of attack, of erasure, of silencing.
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The reason that I started questioning the Christian fundamentalism I grew up with was because I saw people valuing the system of belief as more important than having compassion for hurting people in our community.
Fundamentalism is all about maintaining that self-protective bubble. Those on the inside are good, those on the outside are seen as a threat. There is a strong need to be right. Because outrage and fear are fostered in a fundamentalist environment, being in that environment for an extended time is very much like being angry all the time. That us/them thinking has the positive function of creating a deep sense of belonging and identity within the group, but at the same time it moves those inside further and further from empathy--which is at the very heart of how Jesus saw those who were considered "outsiders" by the fundamentalism of his day.
In short, fundamentalism is a form of tribalism that fosters and perpetuates this anti-social self-focused state, stunting a person's moral growth. The longer a person spends in that environment, the more morally impaired they become--like living in a building filled with asbestos. Asbestos is meant to protect you from fire, but poisons your insides. Fundamentalism is the same.
"---the get-me-to-heaven-and-the-rest-be-damned Christianity the Christian Right preaches is itself a version of selfish spiritual capitalism aimed at netting major and eternal dividends, and it fits hand in glove with American materialism and greed.”
Not only is fundamentalism based solidly in the fear of its members---it should make all of us who are not fundamentalists afraid of them. They do stupid things and attribute it to "God's will." They try to force other people to accept those stupid things as "normal."
Sorry, we won't do that. So we stay on these threads to point out to THINKING people, just how much they have to perform a lobotomy on their own brains in order to sink into the mire of fundamentalism.
I still wonder that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples of people escaping fundamentalism and yet I have so far been unable to find a single testimony by a progressive Christian praising the fact that he/she has become entangled in its suffocating tendrils.
This final one doesn't equal, but is close, to my own escape from fundamentalism:
Quote:
Constant fear and doubt: we were weaned on it, and it was never far from us.
This is the patriarchal, ego-fortifying, psyche-destroying, soul-crushing, domineering, brain-washing, fear-inducing, manipulative, spiritually abusive world of the fundamentalism I know so well. They know nothing of an unconditionally loving God—the God that, since I have gotten away from that awful world, I have come to know and love.
It’s for these reasons that I am very pleased indeed to today call myself an Unfundamentalist Christian.
My experience stretches from Southern Baptist to Eastern Orthodox to Anglican across 30 years, attending every week and not just occasionally . No , my experience isn't limited and , yes , much of Christianity is based on fire insurance against Hell. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise .
Your experience is limited to your experience. I do not share your experience.
My experience stretches from Southern Baptist to Eastern Orthodox to Anglican across 30 years, attending every week and not just occasionally . No , my experience isn't limited and , yes , much of Christianity is based on fire insurance against Hell. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise .
Maybe you should steer away from those denominations. Many places do not focus on that topic.
Anyone who claims the selling point of Christianity isnt an escape from Hell is fooling themselves . The entire point of Christ was to rescue men from Hell . Practically of western Christianity is based on the substitutionary atonement of Christ, who saves men from ......what exactly? Hell.
Just about the only Christian faith that doesn't operate on the basis of Christ appeasing Gods wrath towards man is the Eastern Orthodox, who understand the role of Christ differently than western Christianity does .
You two can claim whatever you want . But if your faith is based on the substitutionary atonement of Christ then it is based on Christ delivering you from Hell. It's that simple .
Anyone who claims the selling point of Christianity isnt an escape from Hell is fooling themselves . The entire point of Christ was to rescue men from Hell . Practically of western Christianity is based on the substitutionary atonement of Christ, who saves men from ......what exactly? Hell.
Just about the only Christian faith that doesn't operate on the basis of Christ appeasing Gods wrath towards man is the Eastern Orthodox, who understand the role of Christ differently than western Christianity does .
You two can claim whatever you want . But if your faith is based on the substitutionary atonement of Christ then it is based on Christ delivering you from Hell. It's that simple .
No, not even all American Christians believe it is primarily "substitutionary" atonement. I do, but I'm currently reading a book by a pastor who does not:
Saving Jesus from the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus by Robin Meyers is an attempt to restore the true mission of the faith that captures the heart of Jesus’s concern for people over “right belief.” Rev. Dr. Robin R. Meyers is a nationally known UCC pastor, professor, peace activist, and the author of six books about progressive Christianity and American society. He has been the senior minister of Mayflower Congregational UCC church, Oklahoma City, for 27 years. He is also a tenured full professor of rhetoric in the philosophy department at Oklahoma City University.
There are a number of ideas with which I disagree with Rev. Meyers--but the overall message about "people first" I am 100% behind.
But don't expect DRob4JC nor FinnJarber nor Twin.spin to come close to picking up such a book to learn more about Jesus from a different perspective. They haven't the faith to be challenged in their core beliefs. They worry that it would "subvert" them. They are fearful people wishing to preserve what they have, not find a fresh perspective about Jesus of Nazareth. Those who are Christ followers aren't afraid of any truth and plunge right in where ardent fundamentalists quake.
No, not even all American Christians believe it is primarily "substitutionary" atonement. I do, but I'm currently reading a book by a pastor who does not:
Saving Jesus from the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus by Robin Meyers is an attempt to restore the true mission of the faith that captures the heart of Jesus’s concern for people over “right belief.” Rev. Dr. Robin R. Meyers is a nationally known UCC pastor, professor, peace activist, and the author of six books about progressive Christianity and American society. He has been the senior minister of Mayflower Congregational UCC church, Oklahoma City, for 27 years. He is also a tenured full professor of rhetoric in the philosophy department at Oklahoma City University.
There are a number of ideas with which I disagree with Rev. Meyers--but the overall message about "people first" I am 100% behind.
But don't expect DRob4JC nor FinnJarber nor Twin.spin to come close to picking up such a book to learn more about Jesus from a different perspective. They haven't the faith to be challenged in their core beliefs. They worry that it would "subvert" them. They are fearful people wishing to preserve what they have, not find a fresh perspective about Jesus of Nazareth. Those who are Christ followers aren't afraid of any truth and plunge right in where ardent fundamentalists quake.
Certainly there are some (likely) liberal churches that don't work off the substitutionary atonement concept, which has a number of subsets on just how that substitution worked . But Catholics do, and every conservative sect I know of does, so we are talking about the majority of American Christians , and almost certainly of the specific beliefs of the posters here asserting they didn't become Christian because of a fear of Hell .
Anyone who claims the selling point of Christianity isnt an escape from Hell is fooling themselves . The entire point of Christ was to rescue men from Hell . Practically of western Christianity is based on the substitutionary atonement of Christ, who saves men from ......what exactly? Hell.
Just about the only Christian faith that doesn't operate on the basis of Christ appeasing Gods wrath towards man is the Eastern Orthodox, who understand the role of Christ differently than western Christianity does .
You two can claim whatever you want . But if your faith is based on the substitutionary atonement of Christ then it is based on Christ delivering you from Hell. It's that simple .
If that's the case then your earlier comment cannot be true. Why should a believer fear hell?
Your personal experience shows you became a Christians out of fear, but that is not the case with everyone. Many come to Christ because they feel they needed Him. Their lives were empty and unhappy and Christ filled the void.
If that's the case then your earlier comment cannot be true. Why should a believer fear hell?
Your personal experience shows you became a Christians out of fear, but that is not the case with everyone. Many come to Christ because they feel they needed Him. Their lives were empty and unhappy and Christ filled the void.
And, as a bonus - if they believed today - they could get a genuine, Get Out Of Hell And Go Directly Into Heaven When You Expire promissory note signed by some anonymous men who claimed to be channeling God* a few thousand years ago!
*Endorsed by none other than Constantine his own self!! AND his mother!!!
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