Bill Wiese (Gospels, unpardonable, fanaticism, beliefs)

[tdinh]

Don't take this the wrong way, but people, if you want me to check something out that you disagree with me about, I will, and I will take an honest non-judgment look at what your showing, and just like I tell my wife, don't hand me a book about this, that or the other if your not sure why or what you believe it. Tell me why you believe what you believe it and show it to me, but dont hand me a large volume book about something you like or believe and expect me to go through out (refering to what my wife does).

Again, no offense, herefornow, but if you want to bring it to my attention to read, I will read it, but I am not going to spending the next 4-5 days reading on something you want me read, because you like what he has to say.

Again, just copy and paste the part of what you agree with, and why you agree with it and post it here or message me and I will read it. But don't paste the entire however many pages you want me to read and expect me not to skim on the meat and potatoes of his article. Just get to the point of what your issue is, what I am not even sure what it is.

thanks

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by tdinh

I am newer to this thread, and was just reading through it and see that some of the people who are constantly replying aren't so much concerned about scripture.....

Bill's not so much concerned about scripture except to take it out of context to support his dream/fairytale.

Originally Posted by tdinh

They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

That's right - the mid-evil pagan concepts of hell are a perfect example of baseless superstitious myths.

[herefornow]

Originally Posted by tdinh

Don't take this the wrong way, but people, if you want me to check something out that you disagree with me about, I will, and I will take an honest non-judgment look at what your showing, and just like I tell my wife, don't hand me a book about this, that or the other if your not sure why or what you believe it. Tell me why you believe what you believe it and show it to me, but dont hand me a large volume book about something you like or believe and expect me to go through out (refering to what my wife does).

Again, no offense, herefornow, but if you want to bring it to my attention to read, I will read it, but I am not going to spending the next 4-5 days reading on something you want me read, because you like what he has to say.

Again, just copy and paste the part of what you agree with, and why you agree with it and post it here or message me and I will read it. But don't paste the entire however many pages you want me to read and expect me not to skim on the meat and potatoes of his article. Just get to the point of what your issue is, what I am not even sure what it is.

thanks

What exactly do you disagree with about my view of Lazarus and the Rich Man? I did give you a much shorter link to look at, but you did not look at it?

[tdinh]

Based on my previous posts, firstborn888, what was taken out of context, or what in scripture do you believe are a baseless superstitious myth. Let's put Bill Weise testimony aside, for I would like your opinion?

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Bill's not so much concerned about scripture except to take it out of context to support his dream/fairytale.

That's right - the mid-evil pagan concepts of hell are a perfect example of baseless superstitious myths.

[tdinh]

Your confusing me. I am not even sure what your talking about. Again, post here what you want me to see or look it, and I would be happy to read.

Originally Posted by herefornow

What exactly do you disagree with about my view of Lazarus and the Rich Man? I did give you a much shorter link to look at, but you did not look at it?

[herefornow]

Originally Posted by tdinh

Your confusing me. I am not even sure what your talking about. Again, post here what you want me to see or look it, and I would be happy to read.

There are quite a few things wrong with the interpretation of the traditional version of Lazarus and the Rich Man, but can you answer this question? Can you give me a reason why the rich man asked for a drop of water for his tongue instead of a fire-hose for his body?

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by tdinh

Based on my previous posts, firstborn888, what was taken out of context, or what in scripture do you believe are a baseless superstitious myth. Let's put Bill Weise testimony aside, for I would like your opinion?

This thread is about Bill's testimony and that's what I'm commenting on. From earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Bill Weise's 23 minutes in hell vision is the biggest mess of unscriptural nonsense ever. Need proof?

A bible school director (and long time friend) was shocked that I would dismiss Bill's story as bunk and asked "have you read all 150 scriptures that Bill Wiese gave to prove his 'vision' was from God?".

Here's my partial rebuttal to Bill's nonsense and twisting of scripture to try and prove his 'experience' was valid:


Quote:
You asked me if I'd read all 150 scriptures that Bill Wiese gave to prove his 'vision' was from God.

First Bill refers to Paul's catching up to prove his own 'catching down' saying:

(quote) "Some Christians have said, "Oh a Christian can't leave his body." But that's not true, In 2 Corinthians 12:2, when Paul was caught up into the third heaven, He said, "whether in the body, or out of the body I do not know." (end quote)

Okay, fine.

But then he refers to Jonah:

(quote)"And In Jonah 2:6 it says, "the earth with her bars was about me forever, yet thou has brought up my life from corruption." So at least there was somebody in the Bible that experienced Hell, Jonah". (end quote)

Of course you and I know that the KJV translates "Sheol" as ' the grave', 'the pit' and 'hell'.

“ I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,
And He answered me.
“ Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.

Was not Jonah speaking metaphorically here? ie: " I was as good as dead"?
Later Bill claims "The earth with her bars" confirms the literal bars on his prison cell in 'hell'.

Then Bill quotes Job 17:16 to further confirm his assigned prison cell in 'hell' had literal bars. Again, it's clear to me that Job was speaking of the grave in a generic sense:

NRS: Will it go down to the bars of Sheol? Shall we descend together into the dust?"

NIV "Will it go down to the gates of death? Will we descend together into the dust?"

amp"[My hope] shall go down to the bars of Sheol (the unseen state) when once there is rest in the dust. "

Bill is cherry picking to try and give his vision some credibility.

To prove 'cells' or 'rooms' he quotes Prov. 7: 26

"For she has cast down many wounded,
And all who were slain by her were strong men.
27 Her house is the way to hell (Sheol - the grave)
Descending to the chambers of death".

Bill just plays on people's (and his own) ignorance concerning the generic state of death by using the KJV rendering of 'Sheol - the grave - the unseen' as the English word 'hell'.

He goes on to state how strong the demons were and how weak he was:

(Quote) "The one picked me up, and the other one, with his razor-sharp claws; he just shredded my flesh right off. He just tore it off, and had absolutely no care what so ever for this body that God so wonderfully made. It had a hatred that was so intense against me. I wondered, "Why am I alive, why am I living through this? I don't understand why am I not dead." My flesh just hung there in ribbons. And there was no blood, just flesh hanging, because life is in the blood, and there is no life in Hell. And there is no water in Hell.

In Isaiah 14:9-10 it says

Hell (the grave) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?

Psalms 88:4

I am counted with those who go down to the pit; I am like a man who has no strength, (end Quote)

Of course dead men no longer have strength. Sheeeesh Bill!

Then he talks about the cussing and profanities in 'hell'

(Quote) The profanities, that they were cursing at God is mentioned in Ezekiel 22-26 "I am profaned among them"

Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. (end quote)

Clearly this passage has NOTHING to do with cussing or what we call profanity.

Then he explains the scriptural-ness of the demons ripping his flesh off by quoting Micah 3:2

“ 1 Hear now, O heads of Jacob,
And you rulers of the house of Israel:
Is it not for you to know justice?
2 You who hate good and love evil;
Who strip the skin from My people,[a]
And the flesh from their bones;
3 Who also eat the flesh of My people,
Flay their skin from them,
Break their bones,
And chop them in pieces
Like meat for the pot,
Like flesh in the caldron.”

This is obvious metaphorical speech of how the leaders were taking advantage of the masses at that time (same as today!)

Then he talks about the humiliation you endure in the afterlife:

(quote) There are scriptures about the humiliation you have to endure. "This thing is going to run my life, I can't stop it!" In Isaiah 5:14-15

Therefore my people have gone into captivity, Because they have no knowledge; Their honorable men are famished, And their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore the grave enlarges its appetite and opens its mouth without limit; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revelers. So man will be brought low and mankind humbled, the eyes of the arrogant humbled.

Ezekiel 32:24

There is Elam and all her multitude, All around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, Who caused their terror in the land of the living; Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.

On and on it goes. That was a horrible thing, to have your life run by these creatures, that have no mercy for you whatsoever.
(end quote)

Again, he uses all this to claim demonic 'creatures' are ruling in 'hell'.

Then he claims Psalms written by David to confirm the darkness in 'hell'

(quote) "I looked one direction, all black, and all I heard was screams, billions of people screaming in this place. I knew there were billions, and it was so loud. If you have ever heard someone scream before, it is so annoying. Well if you hear billions of people screaming, you can't imagine how it affects your mind. You just can't stand it. You hold your ears because it is so loud and penetrating. You can't get away from the screams.

And the fear that overcomes you is unbelievable. Everything is dominated by fear. There is no presence of God in this place, so you have to endure the fear and the torment and the blackness. You can't see anything. You can't even see what is coming up against you.

Scripture talks about this darkness in Psalms 88:6 "You have laid me in the lowest pit, In darkness, in the depths". (end quote)

David is talking about dark trials and tribulations - not Bill's afterlife dream world. Again, David is speaking about his trials here and totally contradicts Bill's application in another Psalm "If I make my bed in Sheol, YOU (God) are there"

Then he talks about how desolate it is:

(Quote) "I was now outside the cell and I looked this direction and as I looked this way I could see there was flames of fire, about 10 miles away from me. I knew it was 10 miles. And a pit of fire, about 3 miles across, had flames that lit up the skyline enough to see the landscape of Hell just a little bit.

The darkness was so heavy; it just eats up any light. But there was enough to just see some of the skyline. It was all brown and desolate! I mean absolutely not one green leaf, not anything of life of any kind, just stone, dirt and black sky, and smog in the skylight. The flames were really high, so I could see it. There was a scripture in Deuteronomy 29:23

The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.

There is no life whatsoever in Hell. It is so strange to be in a world where there is no life. Here we enjoy trees and fresh air, but there it is absolutely all dead. (end quote)

In context we see this passage has absolutely nothing to do with the afterlife:

Deuteronomy 29:20-25 (New King James Version)

20 “The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven. 21 And the LORD would separate him from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law, 22 so that the coming generation of your children who rise up after you, and the foreigner who comes from a far land, would say, when they see the plagues of that land and the sicknesses which the LORD has laid on it:
23 ‘The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.’ 24 All nations would say, ‘Why has the LORD done so to this land? What does the heat of this great anger mean?’ 25 Then people would say: ‘Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt;

Bill speaks of heat:

(quote) The heat was so intense, you can even describe it. It says in Deuteronomy 32:24

They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. (end quote)

About water he says

(quote) Regarding the water, in Zechariah 9:11,

...I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Absolutely no water in Hell. (end quote)

Concerning hopelessness he says

(quote) This is the worse thing about Hell, that there was absolutely no hope of ever getting out. I understood that. I grasped eternity. I could understand eternity. Here on earth, we can't quite, can't get a hold of it. But there I understood it. I knew I would be there forever and ever, and had no hope of getting out. Even people in concentration camps had a hope of getting out, or dying at least, to get out of it. But we've never experienced a totally hopeless situation. In Isaiah 38:18 it says,

"Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth." (end quote)

Again Anthony, read the context.

15 “ What shall I say?
He has both spoken to me,
And He Himself has done it.
I shall walk carefully all my years
In the bitterness of my soul.
16 O Lord, by these things men live;
And in all these things is the life of my spirit;
So You will restore me and make me live.
17 Indeed it was for my own peace
That I had great bitterness;
But You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption,
For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.
18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You,
As I do this day;
The father shall make known Your truth to the children.
20 “ The LORD was ready to save me;
Therefore we will sing my songs with stringed instruments
All the days of our life, in the house of the LORD.”

This passage is simply making the case for remaining alive to praise God, as there is no work or thought or knowledge in the grave (Sheol) where man goes.

Bill just twists every scripture to fit his unscriptural description of the afterlife.

So, you ask - did I read all 150 scriptures he gave? NO! The few I read were enough to see what this 'experience' was all about.

Ancient demonic pagan underworld mythology.

Well, there ya' go....

What we have is spiritually immature people (little children) running around with a literalist understanding of scripture. Yes, they are cute and all (just like literal little children) until they start hurting other people.

[mercy777]

Originally Posted by freedom

All things are possible. Do you think it is worth our time and effort.
3,700 miles is a mighty long drill...

If one really wanted to see it, I think that is fairly easy to do.

godspeed,

freedom

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioNative
He said that Hell was beneath the surface of the earth. Do you think that we could locate it with seismograph equipment or a long enough drill?

I heard this years ago and just recently this subject came up with some friends about the "hollow earth". I am not saying I believe or disbelieve, however the person I met years ago gave me a map and there were so many openings to enter this "hollow earth". One was Tenn. and another in Cali. for the U.S. Caves one could enter in which to enter this place.
Scripture does many times mention "in" or "depths" of the earth and Jesus Himself entered the lower depths (regions) and has power and authority in heaven, on earth and under earth. So scripture is plain, there is a place.
The Book of Enoch describes this better, however, I myself do not consider this book scriptural.
Also another in depth question that may pertain to this subject is the "fallen angels", Nephilim, Rephaim, etc. And a thought, do angels even inherit salvation? All that have fallen went with Satan.

Ephesians 1:12
in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. This is how much the creation is loved by God. And the angels bow to Christ and under His authority.
Very interesting subject.

God Bless,
Mercy

[tdinh]

I have no problem answering this reply, however, it may be a waste of time no matter what I say, but I have three questions for you and I will happily give you an answer.

1) Do you believe in the Bible as God's infallible Word?
2) Are you a born again Christian?
3) This post, was this something you copy and pasted from another's answer about Bill Weise's book and interpretation of scripture, or was this your interpretation of scripture based on his experience?

Originally Posted by firstborn888

This thread is about Bill's testimony and that's what I'm commenting on. From earlier in this thread:


What we have is spiritually immature people (little children) running around with a literalist understanding of scripture. Yes, they are cute and all (just like literal little children) until they start hurting other people.

[tdinh]

Yes, based on God's word, hell/hades is inside the depths of the earth. And yes, I agree with your scriptures also, but not the Book of Enoch which is not in the Bible. But here are a few scriptures which acknowledges it also-- they mostly in the book of Revelation:

1. Luke 8:31
   And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
   Luke 8:30-32 (in Context) Luke 8 (Whole Chapter)
2. Revelation 9:1
   The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
   Revelation 9:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 9 (Whole Chapter)
3. Revelation 9:2
   When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.
   Revelation 9:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 9 (Whole Chapter)
4. Revelation 9:11
   They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
   Revelation 9:10-12 (in Context) Revelation 9 (Whole Chapter)
5. Revelation 11:7
   Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
   Revelation 11:6-8 (in Context) Revelation 11 (Whole Chapter)
6. Revelation 17:8
   The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
   Revelation 17:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 17 (Whole Chapter)
7. Revelation 20:1
   [ The Thousand Years ] And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
   Revelation 20:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
8. Revelation 20:3
   He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

But no, I do not believe it is possible for man to dig that far into the earth to locate it.

Originally Posted by mercy777

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioNative
He said that Hell was beneath the surface of the earth. Do you think that we could locate it with seismograph equipment or a long enough drill?

I heard this years ago and just recently this subject came up with some friends about the "hollow earth". I am not saying I believe or disbelieve, however the person I met years ago gave me a map and there were so many openings to enter this "hollow earth". One was Tenn. and another in Cali. for the U.S. Caves one could enter in which to enter this place.
Scripture does many times mention "in" or "depths" of the earth and Jesus Himself entered the lower depths (regions) and has power and authority in heaven, on earth and under earth. So scripture is plain, there is a place.
The Book of Enoch describes this better, however, I myself do not consider this book scriptural.
Also another in depth question that may pertain to this subject is the "fallen angels", Nephilim, Rephaim, etc. And a thought, do angels even inherit salvation? All that have fallen went with Satan.

Ephesians 1:12
in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. This is how much the creation is loved by God. And the angels bow to Christ and under His authority.
Very interesting subject.

God Bless,
Mercy