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The hitchhiker stalker Prius guy is right. I do disagree with Warden. When he calls people liars or arrogant(hubris) he is not displaying compassion as it looks to me. It's easy to love God, anyone can do it. Where is his compassion for the devils he has identified? He can explain how that fits in with agape love but I just don't see it. I have yet to see him (and I could have missed it) ask someone that disagrees why they believe something. To me it looks like he is locked into a knowledge position and with that comes judgments and the burden of trying to be understood rather than understand. He said it himself: "That is spiritually what all of us want from others--that they see ME, not my physical makeup nor the clothes I wear, but ME, as an individual. It takes agape love to do that!" Well, do you want to be seen or do you want to see? I'll admit I am still in the be seen phase of whatever this thing is. I find the best way for me to be seen is to try and see others.
It's not my story to tell but I understand why Rbbi burned those books and I am cool with that and I'm a freaking atheist. She told me herself despite the huge gab in how we self identify. I didn't assume she is anti education despite her being religious.
Okay, so you don't disagree with Warden's belief of what agape is, but rather you do not think that he has exhibited/expressed it toward Rbbi? You don't think he "sees" Rbbi?
I'll say this. I have asked Rbbi to explain her beliefs and I have spent time and effort trying to understand where she's coming from and to SEE her. She has made it very clear, however, that I and some others here are not worthy to know her (or, in her mind, her God). I do not know how to get beyond that attitude of her not wanting us to see her, but I have continued to try.
Okay, so you don't disagree with Warden's belief of what agape is, but rather you do not think that he has exhibited/expressed it toward Rbbi? You don't think he "sees" Rbbi?
I'll say this. I have asked Rbbi to explain her beliefs and I have spent time and effort trying to understand where she's coming from and to SEE her. She has made it very clear, however, that I and some others here are not worthy to know her (or, in her mind, her God). I do not know how to get beyond that attitude of her not wanting us to see her, but I have continued to try.
Anyway, I appreciate your heart, L8.
I only see Warden showing agape for those he doesn't find offensive. Maybe it is me being reflected back via Warden but I don't think so because it doesn't make me angry.
Yeah, I have seen you go out of your way to get some understanding from Rbb. Whatever her reason is for not connecting is on her.
I only see Warden showing agape for those he doesn't find offensive. Maybe it is me being reflected back via Warden but I don't think so because it doesn't make me angry.
Yeah, I have seen you go out of your way to get some understanding from Rbb. Whatever her reason is for not connecting is on her.
Warden and I went at it pretty good when he first came. He came at me with guns blazing, lol. It wasn't personal, I don't think. It's just his style. In the long run, though, he actually did listen even if he didn't agree, and he was always willing to be forthcoming about his own stance. I've never had to wonder about what Warden believes.
It was pointed out to me when I said that the Golden rule was lacking that everyone already knew that.
It is not the Golden Rule that is lacking, but the perception of how it applies, just as peope fail to see Agape for what it is and supply some vague notions of warm fuzzies instead of that concern for the greatest well-being of the person involved and not just their immediate comfort.
It is not the Golden Rule that is lacking, but the perception of how it applies, just as peope fail to see Agape for what it is and supply some vague notions of warm fuzzies instead of that concern for the greatest well-being of the person involved and not just their immediate comfort.
I said it was lacking because it required a person to stay inside themselves and treat someone as they would want to be treated. Better to treat someone as they would want to be treated which means having to gain a little understanding of who they are. How can you know what provides the greatest well being to another? Isn't their well being their responsibility?
What are these warm fuzzies that you speak of? Is this something kinky that involves hitchhikers?
What you say is true and it defines the human condition, Warden, but it is an unavoidable condition of our unique consciousness (Spirit). Only those who have such consciousness judge. It requires a consciousness to abstract the necessary cognitions that enable judgment. Only such consciousness can employ names. Only such consciousness can suffer and perceive suffering. A bird can die frozen on a wire without ever having felt sorry for itself because it does not have the kind of consciousness we do that enables such abstract judgment of their condition. It is why we are God's children. Of course, agape love is WORK, Warden. It is our entire purpose and only we (that we know of on earth) have the capability of it. We reproduce God's consciousness (or fail to), but thankfully Jesus DID it perfectly for us so our imperfections are not critical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
That is spiritually what all of us want from others--that they see ME, not my physical makeup nor the clothes I wear, but ME, as an individual. It takes agape love to do that!
Yes, Warden, that is what God wants from us as well and it IS work. Agape is not easy.
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Originally Posted by DewDropInn
Amen!
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Originally Posted by pcamps
I agree Warden, what we are seeing in others in my opinion is a reflection of ourselves. How important is it then to always find something of God in each other, it's there it just needs us to look without an outward appearance judgement, but a righteous judgement that sees beyond appearance.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
Hmm, okay. I'm not seeing where anyone was arguing for the idea that it's "abnormal" for some people to make judgments about others based on their looks. Is that what L8 was arguing for? I thought she was just saying that humanitarians rise above that, and make the effort to "see" others beyond seeing their outward appearances, and help if possible, regardless of their own personal prejudices. And Warden was saying that that is the goal of agape/love as well.
I guess I'm just not seeing the disagreement in their exchange.
Perceptive as always, Pleroo. I believe the apparent disagreements are a result of NOT understanding what agape IS and why our human nature is frequently opposed to it.
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Originally Posted by bbyrd009
Agape does not mean "no judgement" iow, rather "righteous judgement." The merchants in the Temple got agape from Christ; some kind of way, imo.
This is incorrect. Agape means no judgment. That is God's job. Of course, our need to survive and interact within a society does impose the need for practical judgments and those are being confused with spiritual judgments here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Okay, what do you base your "righteous judgments" of others on?
If I had to guess, it would be the "precepts and doctrines of men," Pleroo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbyrd009
well, if you accept the Golden Rule as analogous to agape love, at some point you have to make a value judgement, a personal thing. A prostitute wants to be "treated" to a customer, but this is obviously not a moral thing to do.
hmm. I'm not sure that i would even make a conscious judgement about him, so much as fail to even recognize him in a sense, due to my preconceptions. The post just struck a chord with me.
QED! The golden rule is NOT analogous to agape love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
I do disagree with Warden. When he calls people liars or arrogant(hubris) he is not displaying compassion as it looks to me.
You make the same mistake so many others do, L8. Characterizing ACTS and ATTITUDES is NOT the same as calling people anything. Warden is simply acknowledging our human failings and how difficult it is to love God and each other every day. You are wrong, it is NOT easy to love God since you can NOT love God if you do NOT love your fellow human beings (some/many of whom are decidedly unlovable if not downright evil). All we can do is try and repent when we fail.
The hitchhiker stalker Prius guy is right. I do disagree with Warden. When he calls people liars or arrogant(hubris) he is not displaying compassion as it looks to me. It's easy to love God, anyone can do it. Where is his compassion for the devils he has identified? He can explain how that fits in with agape love but I just don't see it. I have yet to see him (and I could have missed it) ask someone that disagrees why they believe something. To me it looks like he is locked into a knowledge position and with that comes judgments and the burden of trying to be understood rather than understand. He said it himself: "That is spiritually what all of us want from others--that they see ME, not my physical makeup nor the clothes I wear, but ME, as an individual. It takes agape love to do that!" Well, do you want to be seen or do you want to see? I'll admit I am still in the be seen phase of whatever this thing is. I find the best way for me to be seen is to try and see others.
It's not my story to tell but I understand why Rbbi burned those books and I am cool with that and I'm a freaking atheist. She told me herself despite the huge gab in how we self identify. I didn't assume she is anti education despite her being religious.
Thank you. I appreciate your understanding more than you know. Peace
I said it was lacking because it required a person to stay inside themselves and treat someone as they would want to be treated. Better to treat someone as they would want to be treated which means having to gain a little understanding of who they are. How can you know what provides the greatest well being to another? Isn't their well being their responsibility?
What are these warm fuzzies that you speak of? Is this something kinky that involves hitchhikers?
No, it does NOT "require someone to stay inside themselves," It requires them to consider what that person really needs just as if they WERE that person. THAT does not even mean treating a person as they WANT to be treated, but as they NEED to be treated. THAT'S what I mean about failure of application.
Okay, so you don't disagree with Warden's belief of what agape is, but rather you do not think that he has exhibited/expressed it toward Rbbi? You don't think he "sees" Rbbi?
I'll say this. I have asked Rbbi to explain her beliefs and I have spent time and effort trying to understand where she's coming from and to SEE her. She has made it very clear, however, that I and some others here are not worthy to know her (or, in her mind, her God). I do not know how to get beyond that attitude of her not wanting us to see her, but I have continued to try.
Anyway, I appreciate your heart, L8.
It is sad, but true, Pleroo. She is in a bad place and refuses any help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
I only see Warden showing agape for those he doesn't find offensive. Maybe it is me being reflected back via Warden but I don't think so because it doesn't make me angry.
Yeah, I have seen you go out of your way to get some understanding from Rbb. Whatever her reason is for not connecting is on her.
Warden is harder on himself than on anyone else, L8, but his heart is in the right place. He knows our God and tries to be what God wants us to be. He is impatient with those who judge others in the name of God instead of judging themselves and trying to correct their own failings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Warden and I went at it pretty good when he first came. He came at me with guns blazing, lol. It wasn't personal, I don't think. It's just his style. In the long run, though, he actually did listen even if he didn't agree, and he was always willing to be forthcoming about his own stance. I've never had to wonder about what Warden believes.
Warden is passionate about God, that is certain, Pleroo. You read him correctly, IMO.
No, it does NOT "require someone to stay inside themselves," It requires them to consider what that person really needs just as if they WERE that person. THAT does not even mean treating a person as they WANT to be treated, but as they NEED to be treated. THAT'S what I mean about failure of application.
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