Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven, then infanticide saves infants from any chance of growing up & going to endless torments or annihilation.
Should a loving parent, therefore, kill their infants before they reach an age at which God would hold them accountable?
"Evangelicals are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.
"Some, who believe in God's sovereign election of the "few," also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. John Calvin said, "there are babies a span long in hell."
"Others consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
"A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in a bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
"The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if Arminianism is right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
"Apparently, many Christians believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this the "age of accountability."
"If I believed this nonsense I would take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and, before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
"Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong ("thou shalt not kill"). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the eternal salvation of the babies. If Arminianism is right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls." Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause. Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life revelling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
"Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save every one of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say, "I have saved myself from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision. God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
"The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong." The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong?" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my Dad often says, "That's what makes Him God!" "
THERE IS ONLY ONE IMPORTANT THING YOU DON'T SEEM TO CARE ABOUT AS YOUR QUESTION PROVES..
Mat 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
Mat 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mar 9:42
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Luk 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
JUST KNOW THE FATHER AND THE SON CARES MOST ABOUT THOSE BABIES/ THE VICTIMS .
and that WHO EVERS WOULD DO THAT ... WILL HAVE WANTED A
" MILL STONES TIED AROUND YOUR NECK AND THROWN INTO THE DEEPEST PART OF THE SEA".
maybe you should care it is going to be proved true and stop offending even the pretend babies for your political and religious gain...
Only through the blood of Jesus a child and unborn children will be collected for heaven , which means anointed in Christ believers need to pray with the authority of the believer by the judgment of the cross of Christ where all grace will come , and these prayers by the anointed in Christ must come before the passing of the child , Plus these prayers of the blood of Jesus will also be accepted on animals like pets and animals which prayers must be prayed before the animals passes away , as if the prayers come after the child or animal passes it will be too late as God could not collect them as God does not have them ..........For children under the care of people who do not know God hopefully God has prayer ministries of His children praying for theses lost children
34At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
35all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”
You said a few times, “scriptures teachesâ€, it would have been nice to see those scriptures. we would know that you were speaking by means of Jehovah God and Jesus words. now, Even if babies hadn't the learn the evil ways of this world yet. they were still born through sin because of Adam ,(Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned). Babies didn't commit any sinful acts when the flood hit, yet they still died. Jehovah and Jesus didn't want them to die, but they did. And there was a reason for that.
Sadly and understandably, many believe all babies go to Heaven. But scriptures shows why NO baby goes to Heaven. Many righteous ones will go, but it's NOT to be with their dead love ones as MANY believe. it's to reign with Jesus as kings and priest over an Earth of ONLY righteous humans, Jesus words! ,(Matt. 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth). See (Rev. 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth). And (1Cor. 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?).
NOT that they go to a fiery place as many believe. some believe that they would see their babies when they get to Heaven, A false belief and teaching. first, NO one in Heaven would even know that they came from earth. Because the knowledge of their past would be removed. (Rev.21:4). We can see this because Jesus said there will be NO marriages in Heaven. They then will become Angels ,(Matt. 22:30). So those who have that calling, if their spouse had it too. won't even remember that they were once a married human couple. You said “God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved fromâ€. Not so, Jehovah God didn't save all the time. he didn't save Stephen who taught as Jesus did from being stone to death ,(Acts 7:57-60). babies that die, just like ANYONE ELSE, goes to the grave.
They have a hope like adults of a resurrection ,(John 5:2829 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation). And there's no “SOUL†that has left the body. Which some may believe is what is in Heaven. Because the “SOUL is a LIVING BEING ,(Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul). see also (Ezek. 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die). Who have heard of a “ghost†of the dead committing a sin?
If a baby or anyone went to Heaven once they had died, what would be the point of a resurrection? they would already be in the place they suppose to be. Some believe God would send someone to Heaven, later to say, wait judgment time, you now go to â€hell?†first it makes no sense, secondly we're saying that God can't make up his mind. And true God can do anything, But unlike humans he's not imperfect, so all he does is perfection. those who repents and change from his wicked ways, no matter the crime. in Jehovah God and Jesus eyes, they can be forgiven! ONLY those who speak ill of Jehovah's HS won't! ,(Matt.12:31,32). We see things through imperfect eyes/heart, those two, can see much deeper.
And the “issue of what's right and wrongâ€, is very important for humans, and to Jehovah God and Jesus. This will determine or salvation. This is why Jesus said at,(Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven). which shows NOT everyone will be saved! "scriptures teach?†well, here's Jehovah word through Jesus ,(Rev. 6:16 Then they shouted to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us! Hide us from the one who sits on the throne and from the anger of the Lamb). These are the ones who refuse to do right. so doing what's right or wrong does matter. peace
I believe infants that die are saved, but not because of abortion. I think they are saved because God can by His grace apply the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to those that have not yet come to an age of accountability. King David seemed convinced that he would see his son again in heaven, but he still pleaded and fasted for his life.
2 Samuel 12:21-23 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
But since you try to use this as a springboard for universalism, see the difference in the response of David when Absalom died. He doesn't say he would see Absalom again, he only mourns in extreme grief because Absalom was forever lost.
2 Samuel 18:33 And the king was much moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept: and as he went, thus he said, O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!
2 Samuel 19:1-4 And it was told Joab, Behold, the king weepeth and mourneth for Absalom. And the victory that day was turned into mourning unto all the people: for the people heard say that day how the king was grieved for his son. And the people gat them by stealth that day into the city, as people being ashamed steal away when they flee in battle. But the king covered his face, and the king cried with a loud voice, O my son Absalom, O Absalom, my son, my son!
My opinion is only an opinion, which is subject to whatever God wants to do.
I think each individual is saved from God's wrath on an individual basis - babies included.
Babies have a spirit within them from the womb that is able to receive God just like anyone else. Proof? John the Baptist in the womb when Mary visited Elizabeth.
Luke 1:39-41 - Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
God is able to give His Holy Spirit to any living human. Is He not the creator of all mankind?
When babies die, we don't know their eternal outcome. What we DO know is that our spirits must be cleansed before entering into God's presence. That cleansing is provided by the Holy Spirit within us, who is sent from God.
If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven, then infanticide saves infants from any chance of growing up & going to endless torments or annihilation.
Should a loving parent, therefore, kill their infants before they reach an age at which God would hold them accountable?
That is one of the things we learn from the flood and other judgements by God.
Parents are responsible for their children's lives.
Now is there a hope for them in the resurrection, yes.
NRS Acts 24:15 I have a hope in God -- a hope that they themselves also accept -- that there will be a resurrection of both(1 )the righteous and the unrighteous.
The word "unrighteous here is also translated wicked or unjust. The word in Greek basically refers to thsoe who do not know God, thus cannot obey Him.In Scripture the word wicked applies to those who know God and disobey Him.
Babies and little children cannot know God, so would have that same hope of a resurrection.
...we should just let God be God, and trust Him to handle things that we have absolutely no control.
Agreed. We aren't God, and will never all that he knows, so why wrestle with things we can't know or control?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
