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You may be saved by your own "intelligence", but Christ saves us dummies who believe in Him.
He does sound very similar to Gnosticism. The power of knowledge secrets revealed on who is in touch. I have heard of this type of religous speak before: Rob Bell, Maryanne Williamson, Oprah...
Mike, I'm beginning to have more respect for your point of view. You have moved from that hardliner view to one with more openness.
I recommend a book for you which espouses roughly the same idea. Inspiration and Incarnation by Peter Enns. He wrote the book while still a professor at a very conservative theological seminary. He was brought before the leadership of the seminary, and while the faculty voted to retain him, the trustees did not.
His basic point is that some of the controversies and even contrariness of Scripture was God allowing people to understand things in light of their own culture and time. And as culture changed, so did the way God spoke to them.
I think you would find it enlightening although some of the concepts are a bit to struggle through in light of his educational background.
You have a on this one.
Just in case you missed it. The Bible does not match old beliefs that were around when the Bible was written, like the earh being on pillars, etc.
Job 26:7
“He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, andhangeth the earth upon nothing.”
Since pccamps has promised he won't be imagining others worshipping inanimate objects due to his past, let's try to believe him and encourage his sobriety by letting the conversation die ok?
let his old admitted disorder die. It's water under the bridge.
JMHO thanks
A few here worship themselves by claiming they have God's spirit and the Bible is wrong. They have placed the focus on themselves instead of what god gave to man to focus on Him. If one rejects the scriptures he is rejecting salvation, since it is a belief/fact based on ... the Bible.
I have made no such promise, and it not something imagined too. The bible is worshipped idolised as God. There is something greater (not equal) to the bible here...... Know you not that the one the bible testifies of(Jesus Christ) is in you?. 2 Corinthians 13:5
He's "Given" us all things that pertain to life and godliness. What God gave was the gift of himself to us not the bible.
I am saying that normal people do not worship objects. My suggestion is to let this bizarre fixation be.
Anyhow to move on... I am curious about one thing if it's ok. Not objecting to your words but curious of how you came up with it.
How do you know he's given us all things that pertain to life and godliness?
Mike, I'm beginning to have more respect for your point of view. You have moved from that hardliner view to one with more openness.
I recommend a book for you which espouses roughly the same idea. Inspiration and Incarnation by Peter Enns. He wrote the book while still a professor at a very conservative theological seminary. He was brought before the leadership of the seminary, and while the faculty voted to retain him, the trustees did not.
His basic point is that some of the controversies and even contrariness of Scripture was God allowing people to understand things in light of their own culture and time. And as culture changed, so did the way God spoke to them.
I think you would find it enlightening although some of the concepts are a bit to struggle through in light of his educational background.
You have a on this one.
Thanks. Actually, I have his book and have read it twice, and the first section three times. I agree with much of what he wrote.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-11-2018 at 08:43 PM..
Just in case you missed it. The Bible does not match old beliefs that were around when the Bible was written, like the earh being on pillars, etc.
Job 26:7
“He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, andhangeth the earth upon nothing.”
I know it doesn't. Mike said the same thing in that God allowed the early Hebrews to understand things within their own cultural limitations.
The book I recommended is far more conservative than I am--in fact my view is quite liberal. On the other hand Inspiration and Incarnation is one of the more thoughtful and well reasoned conservative works I've ever read. And it lends credence to those who understand the OT in that way.
Mike has moved in that direction, which means his feet aren't in concrete. It's the same early steps I took in finding a faith that rested outside solely Scripture--which I still revere, but understand quite differently today than I did 50 years ago.
Scripture is still important in that it MUST be infallible concerning how we find FAITH. Not inerrant---but infallible--because it teaches us about Jesus. We have no other way to learn of Him other than word of mouth---which in itself speaks to how many came to be Christians in the first century and maybe a half more.
Japan is an example of how after 250 years from the time Jesuit priests were thrown out of Japan, remaining Japanese Christians executed or went into hiding, the name of Jesus still lived, although far from an orthodox point of view. The Christians were called Hidden Christians because they did enough to keep the Shogun from arresting them and found new ways to hide and pass on their faith. This was particularly important after their numbers were reduced in half from the original 300,000 due to executions--some by crucifixion.
Quote:
Anti-Christian measures became even harsher under the third Tokugawa shogun, Iemitsu, who took power in 1623. It’s estimated that in 1612 there were approximately 300,000 Christians in Japan, but by 1625 there were half that or fewer.
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The Tokugawa shogunate had begun to persecute Christians, largely out of a fear that Christianity would subvert the order and hierarchy that they had struggled for so long to create and maintain. In 1614, Tokugawa Ieyasu issued a proclamation expelling Catholic missionaries from Japan. Japanese Christians were forced to go underground, becoming known as Hidden Christians (kakure kiri****an). Under successive shoguns, persecution intensified. The final straw was to come in 1637, when a revolt broke out in Kyushu.
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The rebels [Christian Japanese] were able to hold out for a surprisingly long time. However, as the winter months wore on, hunger took its toll and the defenses were breached. The victors spent three days slaughtering the rebels. An estimated total of 37,000 were killed, including Amakusa Shiro, and as John Dougill points out, “It’s invidious to play the numbers game when it concerns the dead, but the number killed at Shimabara is almost identical to the 39,000 who died in the Nagasaki atomic bomb.” 10,000 heads were staked up around the castle, and 3,300 were sent to Nagasaki for the same treatment: a clear warning to the people.
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After the banning of the religion and expulsion of foreigners, the Hidden Christians were left without clergy, leading them to develop some very unorthodox practices.
Without a clergy, the only sacrament left to the Hidden Christians was baptism, as lay people were allowed to perform this in the absence of a priest. Thus baptisms became quite important.They also made statues of the Virgin Mary that look nearly indistinguishable from the Buddhist bodhisattva, Kannon, or Jesus statues disguised as Jizo. In fact, Mary became a major focal point of Hidden Christians’ practice. Though everyone was required to register at a Buddhist temple, in some more rural localities the Buddhist clergy knew there were Hidden Christians, but looked the other way. Still, the consequences of being Christian could be so severe that they learned to be extremely secretive.
Perhaps the most important part of daily practice was the recitation of prayers. Called orashio (after the Latin oratio), these were Catholic prayers such as The Lord’s Prayer and the Hail Mary. They were passed down orally to avoid detection. Those that had been translated into Japanese changed little over the centuries, but not so for those in Latin or Portuguese. For example, “Ave Maria gratia lena” became “Abe Mariya hashiyabena.”
So the "word of God" was passed on orally for decade upon decade--and although it was arguably different, it was done without a Bible. When the defense of the Christian stronghold was breached every person from two years of age and up was asked if they were a Christian. Those who confessed were executed on the spot--those who lied, lived to become Hidden Christians that survive even to this day though with fewer than 500 adherents today. But Jesus lived without the Bible.
My point is that a Bible may not be necessary, but hearing the word of God IS. How we are able to receive it, through the Bible, through oral tradition, or through the personal testimony of another, it doesn't appear out of thin air. It's our understanding of the Bible that is always the thing that we must question ourselves upon.
Thanks. Actually, I have his book and have read it twice, and the first section three times. I agree with much of what he wrote.
I've also read his The Bible Tells Me So and The Sin of Certainty: Why God Desires Our Trust More than Our "Correct" Beliefs. The latter I finished only recently. While still conservative, I would call them food for the thinking spiritual conservative.
A few here worship themselves by claiming they have God's spirit and the Bible is wrong. They have placed the focus on themselves instead of what god gave to man to focus on Him. If one rejects the scriptures he is rejecting salvation, since it is a belief/fact based on ... the Bible.
Oh, alright. thanks
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on this one.
