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After several discussion/arguments from posters concerning the main tenets of the Christian faith (Trinity, Scriptural authority,salvation) versus spiritual foundation where a person is led the spirit and knowledge is revealed. They feel that the Bible is partially corrupt and the only way to trully know God is what the spirit reveals. (note: this interpretation is comprised by several posters and may not cover all ideologies)
The soley led by a spirit faith sounded eerily similar to Gnosticism. Earliest Christian writers spoke quite a bit on this movement. I pasted a summary from a page of core beliefs of Gnosticism.
Basics of Gnosticism
We don't have a lot of original sources for all the varied schools of gnosticism. The best we can do is compare what sources we do have to the descriptions of gnosticism given by Irenaeus, Tertullian, and others—mostly in the late 2nd century.
There were so many small, varied groups that some don't really qualify as gnostic, and it can be hard to define exactly what gnostic is.
Here's some basics as defined by Irenaeus and Tertullian:
• The main issue is a rejection of the God of the Old Testament as a false god who made a mistake by creating the world. Jesus is held up as a teacher of whatever school of gnosticism was quoting him, and he is always set in opposition to the god of the Old Testament.
• Generally, the true god, in their opinion, was unknowable. In fact, often they referred to him as Bythus, which means "deep" or "profound."
• This unknowable god somehow mysteriously produced "eons," who were given names like Unspeakable, Silence, Unity, Truth, Silence, Man, Church, Wisdom, Spirit, Christ, etc. These "eons" lived in a place called the pleroma or "fullness."
• These "eons" were usually produced in sets of two, four, eight, or twelve, called (respectively) dyads, tetrads, ogdoads, and duodecads. You'll see this terminology throughout this page.
• The way the world was produced is that Wisdom, wanting to know the unknowable father of all the eons, left the pleroma. When she still couldn't find the unknowable god, she wailed, and her emotions formed a being called the Demiurge. Then she returned to the pleroma.
• It is this Demiurge, who had no idea where he came from, who created the world. He didn't know about the pleroma, the eons, or the unknowable god, so he thought he was god. This Demiurge, according to the gnostics, was the god who created the world.
• When the eons heard about these things they sent one of their own, usually Spirit or Christ, to the earth to bring true knowledge to men, so that they would realize all matter is evil, attain to true knowledge, and enter the pleroma upon death.
• Usually there was a rejection of the apostles. Irenaeus says, "[They say] that they are wiser not only than the elders, but than the apostles" (A.H. III:2:2). They claimed that Jesus delivered his teachings in secret, on the side, to someone other than the apostles. To the apostles he gave only what was fit for the public, but none of the true, secret knowledge.
• This secret knowledge usually involved what is called docetism. Docetism is the strong separation of flesh and spirit, in which everything fleshly, earthly, or material is intrinsically evil or bad.
• Docetism caused different responses in gnostic teachers. Some believed in being very strict and denying the body because the body's evil. Some believed it didn't matter what their body did because their body was insignficant; only the spirit would be saved. Generally, the early Christians said the gnostics tended to live permissive, immoral lives, especially the teachers.
Traditional orthodox Christians also believe the Bible is "partially corrupt" in regards to the Old Testament laws and the sacrificial system. Although they tend to cherry pick which laws they ignore.
As a general rule it is not a good idea to speak as if you were familiar with things of which you are ignorant, and making comparisons between two such things in a public forum is just foolhardy.
After Meeting I will be happy to give you a little information about the nature of Gnosticism AND about the nature of following the Spirit if someone doesn't beat me to it.
BTW yes, there IS a modern day revival of Gnosticism, but it has nothing to do with following the Spirit.
As a general rule it is not a good idea to speak as if you were familiar with things of which you are ignorant, and making comparisons between two such things in a public forum is just foolhardy.
After Meeting I will be happy to give you a little information about the nature of Gnosticism AND about the nature of following the Spirit if someone doesn't beat me to it.
BTW yes, there IS a modern day revival of Gnosticism, but it has nothing to do with following the Spirit.
Second and third bullet points sound exactly what others expound.
As far as your teaching sermon, no thanks. I am good. I have my Bible to instruct me.
1. 1 Timothy 6:5 These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy
2. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. People will refuse to listen to the truth and turn to myths.
Not a problem SumTingy, a LOT of people prefer to remain ignorant rather than have to actually THINK. For those who are not familiar with the terms an practices and who are interested, "Gnostics" were a form of the "mystery religions endemic to the area and the time, which for Gnostics became important in the early second century. (for an idea of mystery religions Google "Dionysian Mysteries"). The Gnostics in general had systems of "special knowledge" reserved for initiates, usually including some interesting cosmology. The main feature was the "Special Knowledge" aspect in which the initiates belonged to a special "inside" group much like some of our more interesting "Conspiracy theorists" today. Not all of them were claiming Christ as founder by any means, but that was a popular basis to grab the interest of those who were marginally involved with the growing religion surrounding the Way Jesus taught.
On the other hand, following the Spirit described and demonstrated by Jesus rarely if ever involves special knowledge. Paul made reference to the idea when he said how simple and accessible the "mystery" of Christ is and was. Instead, guidance by the Spirit will usually involve new understanding of how to apply the knowledge of God's love and our commitment to the well-being of everyone involved in any particular situation that IS the "agape" of Jesus. A good, well known application of that is the general understanding nearly 2,000 years after Christ that it is inappropriate for anyone to own another person as property. Seeinbg how to apply God's love is not always easy, and for that reason it is good to try to see ourselves in that other person's shoes as far as we can understand and seek the advice of people who have more experience and knowledge of situations similar to what we are considering...people that we can see are Spirit led.
After several discussion/arguments from posters concerning the main tenets of the Christian faith (Trinity, Scriptural authority,salvation) versus spiritual foundation where a person is led the spirit and knowledge is revealed. They feel that the Bible is partially corrupt and the only way to trully know God is what the spirit reveals. (note: this interpretation is comprised by several posters and may not cover all ideologies)
The soley led by a spirit faith sounded eerily similar to Gnosticism. Earliest Christian writers spoke quite a bit on this movement. I pasted a summary from a page of core beliefs of Gnosticism.
Basics of Gnosticism
We don't have a lot of original sources for all the varied schools of gnosticism. The best we can do is compare what sources we do have to the descriptions of gnosticism given by Irenaeus, Tertullian, and others—mostly in the late 2nd century.
There were so many small, varied groups that some don't really qualify as gnostic, and it can be hard to define exactly what gnostic is.
Here's some basics as defined by Irenaeus and Tertullian:
• The main issue is a rejection of the God of the Old Testament as a false god who made a mistake by creating the world. Jesus is held up as a teacher of whatever school of gnosticism was quoting him, and he is always set in opposition to the god of the Old Testament.
• Generally, the true god, in their opinion, was unknowable. In fact, often they referred to him as Bythus, which means "deep" or "profound."
• This unknowable god somehow mysteriously produced "eons," who were given names like Unspeakable, Silence, Unity, Truth, Silence, Man, Church, Wisdom, Spirit, Christ, etc. These "eons" lived in a place called the pleroma or "fullness."
• These "eons" were usually produced in sets of two, four, eight, or twelve, called (respectively) dyads, tetrads, ogdoads, and duodecads. You'll see this terminology throughout this page.
• The way the world was produced is that Wisdom, wanting to know the unknowable father of all the eons, left the pleroma. When she still couldn't find the unknowable god, she wailed, and her emotions formed a being called the Demiurge. Then she returned to the pleroma.
• It is this Demiurge, who had no idea where he came from, who created the world. He didn't know about the pleroma, the eons, or the unknowable god, so he thought he was god. This Demiurge, according to the gnostics, was the god who created the world.
• When the eons heard about these things they sent one of their own, usually Spirit or Christ, to the earth to bring true knowledge to men, so that they would realize all matter is evil, attain to true knowledge, and enter the pleroma upon death.
• Usually there was a rejection of the apostles. Irenaeus says, "[They say] that they are wiser not only than the elders, but than the apostles" (A.H. III:2:2). They claimed that Jesus delivered his teachings in secret, on the side, to someone other than the apostles. To the apostles he gave only what was fit for the public, but none of the true, secret knowledge.
• This secret knowledge usually involved what is called docetism. Docetism is the strong separation of flesh and spirit, in which everything fleshly, earthly, or material is intrinsically evil or bad.
• Docetism caused different responses in gnostic teachers. Some believed in being very strict and denying the body because the body's evil. Some believed it didn't matter what their body did because their body was insignificant; only the spirit would be saved. Generally, the early Christians said the gnostics tended to live permissive, immoral lives, especially the teachers.
yes ,, it is called now pretty much new age religion and has infiltrated the churches, especially those churches who do not teach repentance and Jesus blood, stripes, and sacrifice and the power and authority that is there. if they only say
"spiritual" and never use the word "sacrifice for sin ", then he is a new age pastor .. find a different church soon. because our authority is given by Jesus over death hell and demonic lies and demons and all sickness it is those stripes and that blood and that Cross and that resurrection Power ! the promises to live in his kingdom is that ressurrection power that came because of the cross..
OH man last night I wasted so much money going to see 'a wrinkle in time'.. and If I had just noticed poor miss Winfree was in it or involved in anyway .. well I wouldn't have wasted my time or money. it was so sad... yes if you can picture poor Miss Winfee saying it is probably new age or gnostic thought.
they speak alot about good vibrations. and good and evil.. like they know what it is. they do from the tree of the knowledge of man ideas of good and evil..
it is not God's tree of life. that knowledge they worship does not and will not bring humanity to life. all that knowledge they gather has squat to do with Jesus or the Holy Spirit or Father God .
now Tesla talks about vibrations.. because that is what creation is made of ... so all things vibrating is creation..probably Not God or his Spirit..
Now They found first in a Book and that Book tell us how to reach them and how to know them.
and I will say their Book , that they worked out and through men has work great for me. it lead me to Him/ Them ! and daily confirm who they are to me now and who they reveal themselves to me as.
Not a problem SumTingy, a LOT of people prefer to remain ignorant rather than have to actually THINK. For those who are not familiar with the terms an practices and who are interested, "Gnostics" were a form of the "mystery religions endemic to the area and the time, which for Gnostics became important in the early second century. (for an idea of mystery religions Google "Dionysian Mysteries"). The Gnostics in general had systems of "special knowledge" reserved for initiates, usually including some interesting cosmology. The main feature was the "Special Knowledge" aspect in which the initiates belonged to a special "inside" group much like some of our more interesting "Conspiracy theorists" today. Not all of them were claiming Christ as founder by any means, but that was a popular basis to grab the interest of those who were marginally involved with the growing religion surrounding the Way Jesus taught.
On the other hand, following the Spirit described and demonstrated by Jesus rarely if ever involves special knowledge. Paul made reference to the idea when he said how simple and accessible the "mystery" of Christ is and was. Instead, guidance by the Spirit will usually involve new understanding of how to apply the knowledge of God's love and our commitment to the well-being of everyone involved in any particular situation that IS the "agape" of Jesus. A good, well known application of that is the general understanding nearly 2,000 years after Christ that it is inappropriate for anyone to own another person as property. Seeinbg how to apply God's love is not always easy, and for that reason it is good to try to see ourselves in that other person's shoes as far as we can understand and seek the advice of people who have more experience and knowledge of situations similar to what we are considering...people that we can see are Spirit led.
People tend to fear and attack what they don't understand. So I refuse to get into this discussion, I'll just affirm what Nate had to say on the subject. God is with us, here, now. And he still speaks to us, and his Holy Spirit still teaches us. That's all I'm gong to say
Second and third bullet points sound exactly what others expound.
As far as your teaching sermon, no thanks. I am good. I have my Bible to instruct me.
1. 1 Timothy 6:5 These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy.
= Televangelists?
Quote:
2. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. People will refuse to listen to the truth and turn to myths.
The acceptance of the fables, genealogies, and myths in the OT are what Jesus was warning about, yet you accept them ALL without question. Sad.
1 Timothy 1:4
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1 Timothy 4:7
But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
2 Timothy 4:4
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Titus 1:14
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
2 Peter 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
Not a problem SumTingy, a LOT of people prefer to remain ignorant rather than have to actually THINK. For those who are not familiar with the terms an practices and who are interested, "Gnostics" were a form of the "mystery religions endemic to the area and the time, which for Gnostics became important in the early second century. (for an idea of mystery religions Google "Dionysian Mysteries"). The Gnostics in general had systems of "special knowledge" reserved for initiates, usually including some interesting cosmology. The main feature was the "Special Knowledge" aspect in which the initiates belonged to a special "inside" group much like some of our more interesting "Conspiracy theorists" today. Not all of them were claiming Christ as founder by any means, but that was a popular basis to grab the interest of those who were marginally involved with the growing religion surrounding the Way Jesus taught.
On the other hand, following the Spirit described and demonstrated by Jesus rarely if ever involves special knowledge. Paul made reference to the idea when he said how simple and accessible the "mystery" of Christ is and was. Instead, guidance by the Spirit will usually involve new understanding of how to apply the knowledge of God's love and our commitment to the well-being of everyone involved in any particular situation that IS the "agape" of Jesus. A good, well-known application of that is the general understanding nearly 2,000 years after Christ that it is inappropriate for anyone to own another person as property. Seeing how to apply God's love is not always easy, and for that reason it is good to try to see ourselves in that other person's shoes as far as we can understand and seek the advice of people who have more experience and knowledge of situations similar to what we are considering...people that we can see are Spirit led.
Not a problem SumTingy, a LOT of people prefer to remain ignorant rather than have to actually THINK. For those who are not familiar with the terms an practices and who are interested, "Gnostics" were a form of the "mystery religions endemic to the area and the time, which for Gnostics became important in the early second century. (for an idea of mystery religions Google "Dionysian Mysteries"). The Gnostics in general had systems of "special knowledge" reserved for initiates, usually including some interesting cosmology. The main feature was the "Special Knowledge" aspect in which the initiates belonged to a special "inside" group much like some of our more interesting "Conspiracy theorists" today. Not all of them were claiming Christ as founder by any means, but that was a popular basis to grab the interest of those who were marginally involved with the growing religion surrounding the Way Jesus taught.
On the other hand, following the Spirit described and demonstrated by Jesus rarely if ever involves special knowledge. Paul made reference to the idea when he said how simple and accessible the "mystery" of Christ is and was. Instead, guidance by the Spirit will usually involve new understanding of how to apply the knowledge of God's love and our commitment to the well-being of everyone involved in any particular situation that IS the "agape" of Jesus. A good, well known application of that is the general understanding nearly 2,000 years after Christ that it is inappropriate for anyone to own another person as property. Seeinbg how to apply God's love is not always easy, and for that reason it is good to try to see ourselves in that other person's shoes as far as we can understand and seek the advice of people who have more experience and knowledge of situations similar to what we are considering...people that we can see are Spirit led.
I thought I read that you don’t quite believe Jesus is God. And some others who claim to be led by a spirit do believe He is God. So, which one of your spirits is correct?
I thought I read that you don’t quite believe Jesus is God. And some others who claim to be led by a spirit do believe He is God. So, which one of your spirits is correct?
There is only ONE God, only ONE Spirit and Jesus embodied that Spirit in His human consciousness. If you would know the "mind of God," you need to know the "mind of Christ."
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