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...and I find at 2nd Thess. 1:9 that the punishment is: everlasting destruction.....
The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.
2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.
Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!
2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)
9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)
A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).
Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ??????? (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:
"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."
"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."
Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:
... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)
Here we see destruction was temporary:
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)
"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:
"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.
"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).
"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.
"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.
"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
No gymnastics are necessary if you have a correct translation, nothing about it being eternal.
And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.
The concept of salvation being deliverance from "eternal punishment" is utterly false.
If you are correct, then nothing is eternal, which includes those for have eternal life... which shoots down God's promise.
If you are correct, then nothing is eternal, which includes those for have eternal life... which shoots down God's promise.
Quite to the contrary my friend, there is only one word in the Scriptures, of which I am aware, that describes our God as eternal, that word found in two passages is aidios. Our Father's promise stands quite secure: everlasting life is NOT a length of time, but rather, a quality of life completely centered in the Giver of life, the Aidios God of glory.
"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends."
With regards to Matt. 25:46 - it's pretty self-explanatory, unless you don't like what it says. Then you have to perform verbal gymnastics as seen in the OP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
No gymnastics are necessary if you have a correct translation, nothing about it being eternal.
And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.
The concept of salvation being deliverance from "eternal punishment" is utterly false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC If you are correct, then nothing is eternal, which includes those for have eternal life... which shoots down God's promise.
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
It's the beam in their eye that prevents them from seeing clearly.
My friend, what another glorious day this is! Beams are wonderful when positioned in the place intended for them, but when they get in the eye, one's eyesight is shall we say impaired. Lets have a little thought from one of my favorite Anglican priests.
“Trust him. And when you have done that, you are living the life of grace. No matter what happens to you in the course of that trusting - no matter how many waverings you may have, no matter how many suspicions that you have bought a poke with no pig in it, no matter how much heaviness and sadness your lapses, vices, indispositions, and bratty whining may cause you - you believe simply that Somebody Else, by his death and resurrection, has made it all right, and you just say thank you and shut up. The whole slop-closet full of mildewed performances (which is all you have to offer) is simply your death; it is Jesus who is your life. If he refused to condemn you because your works were rotten, he certainly isn't going to flunk you because your faith isn't so hot. You can fail utterly, therefore, and still live the life of grace. You can fold up spiritually, morally, or intellectually and still be safe. Because at the very worst, all you can be is dead - and for him who is the Resurrection and the Life, that just makes you his cup of tea.” - Robert Farrar Capon-
The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.
So the word that means eternal has deceptively been translated as eternal or everlasting?
Does Mark not say if you blaspheme the Lord, that is an eternal sin?
Do many gospel passages not promise you an eternal life?
Does 2 Thess 2:16 not promise eternal comfort?
Does αἰώνιος not mean eternal in Greek to this very day? Ναι.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
No gymnastics are necessary if you have a correct translation, nothing about it being eternal.
And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.
The concept of salvation being deliverance from "eternal punishment" is utterly false.
Then I would stop with the gymnastics and get a correct translation.
The biggie Scripture for fundamentalists is Matthew 25:46 in reference to our Father, a.k.a, Abba, tormenting His non believing creation for ever and ever nonstop. Does punishment have a purpose, or is it an end in itself?
Question: What do you believe and why?
Matt 25:46
It is true that KOLASIS is derived etymologically from KOLAZÔ. It is also true that in Classic Greek, KOLAZÔ means "to prune, to cut off." However, there are several problems with asserting that KOLASIS should be properly translated "cutting off" because of its relationship with KOLAZÔ.
First, determining the meaning of a word by its derivation is an example of the "etymological fallacy." D.A. Carson states that presuming that a word's meaning is bound up with its root or roots is "linguistic nonsense" (Carson, Fallacies, p. 28). Words may or may not share semantic range with their etymological forebears. In many cases, they do not. The fact that all modern lexicons define KOLASIS as "punishment" and not one lists "cutting off" as a possible definition, suggests that it does not mean "cutting off," regardless of what KOLAZÔ may mean.
Second, KOLAZÔ had the meaning "to prune, to cut off" in Classical Greek. However, as the Liddell-Scott lexicon shows, even in classical times, it began to take on the meaning of chastisement or punishment:
to chastise, punish, Sophocles, Euripides, etc.:—Med. to get a person punished, Aristophanes, Plato:—Pass. to be punished, Xenophon. (LS)
While KOLAZÔ may have originally had the meaning "cut off," it was commonly used in late Classical Greek and in Koine Greek to mean "punish, chastise, restrain." A quick check of the modern lexicons will confirm this fact:
Prop[erly] to lop, prune as trees, wings ... to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N.T. (Thayer)
"To cut short," "to lop," "to trim," and figuratively a. "to impede," "restrain," and b. "to punish" ... A common use is for divine chastisement....The NT uses kolazw in Acts 4:18 and 2 Peter 2:9. Only the latter refers to God's punishment (TDNT)
Punish (BAGD) - This lexicon lists dozens of examples from literature contemporary with the NT and lists "punish" as the only meaning for kolazw in this time period.
Moulton & Milligan suggest that kolazw retains the meaning "correcting," "cutting down" in later documents, such as Galen, but note that "punish" is the proper translation in the NT, and cite several contemporary sources supporting this meaning.
Good summary.
Yes--it means punishment. And yes--the implication is that we should fear eternal punishment.
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