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Whats so hard to understand about Satan 'winning'... he has successfully drawn a majority of people away from God? THAT IS what he wins.
The only scenario where satan can win is if Every mortal on earth turns from God--If 1 stands satan loses his life. He lost it all because he got jealous.
Does the Book of Job really convey the idea of HaSatan working for God?
Reading the Book of Job (iyov) about the account of HaSatan one can come away with the idea that Satan is a prosecutor who comes into a courtroom with God as the presiding judge. However, he's not an agent working for God. In fact,regardless of which Bible translation one uses, the Book of Job not only depicts Satan as accusing Job, and by extension man, of serving God not out of genuine love but also of being able to turn anyone, even a blameless man, from serving God. Satan also accuses God of using his power unfairly in protecting Job (Job 1:9-11). That doesn't sound like an agent working for God but does sound as he is depicted, an adversary who slanders God and man.
The idea that Satan has no power does not align with the account in Job. Clearly Satan does have power to wreak havoc as he did against Job and his family. However, the account does show that Satan is powerless to go against a commandment of God. God does not allow Satan to kill Job and indeed Satan is impotent to go against that commandment.
Its interesting that in the Bible Book of Daniel the adversaries of God, these spirit creatures, do have power (Daniel 10:13) The ancient Jews thus did have a reason to believe that these spirit creatures, including Satan, have power to oppose even those who are the true agents of God which is contrary to modern Jewish thinking.
It appears that modern day Jews rely on Isaiah 45:5-7 to believe that God created evil. However some things to consider. The word translated evil is from a Hebrew word that also means calamity, adversity. The word can also refer to moral evil but in this scripture of Isaiah we should look at the context. God is saying that he becomes the rewarder of a faithful Israel but also the punisher of a rebellious Israel. Hence its not moral evil that the scripture refers to but calamity or adversity for a rebellious people.
It is unthinkable that God created moral evil. The ancient Jews would have been aware of this from the description of God in Deuteronomy 32:3,4
One last point, many Christians do not use Satan as an excuse for their own shortcomings. Christians recognize this from both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. Compare Ecclesiastes 8:9 and Galatians 6:7
I don't believe you've read Job very carefully. It teaches us many things that slam Christianity's most orthodox views.
Was Satan able to do ANYTHING to Job without God's approval? No. God gave Satan license to do just about anything but slay His faithful servant. God was USING Satan to see if His strongest follower had the moral strength to withstand what would have killed lesser men. But Satan had no power of his own. Only what God granted him.
Second, there is no way to understand God as other than the Creator of events when Scripture is contradictory with regard to who the source of misfortune was.
Quote:
Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2 Samuel 24:1)
---------- Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1)
Christianity has developed all sorts of "explanations" (as opposed to taking Scripture at face value) to keep God's "word" perfect and not have God depicted as a Force who requires a human to do something and then punishes him for it.
Yet, there is no debacle if Satan is God's servant or agent. If Satan orders it, then it was only because God wanted it so. Both verses say the same thing despite being written several centuries apart.
Isaiah, a biblical book where even the oldest copies have very little redaction, quotes God Himself stating:
Quote:
so that all may know, from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting, that there is none but Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things. Drip down, O heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness. Let the earth open up that salvation may sprout and righteousness spring up with it; I, the LORD, have created it.…
Isaiah 45:6-8
God apparently isn't blaming Satan for calamities. Moreover, Jesus in the NT points out that at least some of these acts have nothing to do with being righteous or unrighteous. It's simply a part of God's creative plan to observe how His children react with either faithfulness or unfaithfulness.
Quote:
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 5:44-45
Furthermore this is an example, like the book of our Job, where God turns Scripture upside down from our traditional thinking. Job's friends all believed that Job had done something wrong--and that is why he suffered--he needed to repent. That seems to be a theme in the Bible itself. God uses "rain" to bless the faithful and punish the unfaithful:
When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people, if My People who are called by my Name will humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive there sin and heal their land. (2 Chronicles 7: 13-14).
Many Christians like to blame Satan for destructive calamities. But the above presents a picture of GOD causing the calamity.
Finally, the end of Job shows us something, too. To a great degree Christians want to bow their heads when bad things happen (like 911) and say either God was punishing us, or Satan has injected himself (as a "less powerful god" to inflict evil upon us (re-read Isaiah 45:6-8 regarding "there is no God but me"). They will never stand up to God concerning what they believe is an injustice. Yet that is EXACTLY what Job did. He argued with God. Ultimately he lost the contest but who is it at the end of the book God defends as His faithful servant? His friends were wrong. God specifically told them they were. The orthodox view of "one suffers because of sin and one thrives because of righteousness" was NOT God's view.
Satan as a Servant, makes more sense than Satan a "lesser god." It also reconciles Scripture contradictions such as those above.
And my personal experience is that Satan never made me do anything evil. I was drawn away from a faithful walk by my own predilection for rebellion.
Does the Book of Job really convey the idea of HaSatan working for God?
Reading the Book of Job (iyov) about the account of HaSatan one can come away with the idea that Satan is a prosecutor who comes into a courtroom with God as the presiding judge. However, he's not an agent working for God. In fact,regardless of which Bible translation one uses, the Book of Job not only depicts Satan as accusing Job, and by extension man, of serving God not out of genuine love but also of being able to turn anyone, even a blameless man, from serving God. Satan also accuses God of using his power unfairly in protecting Job (Job 1:9-11). That doesn't sound like an agent working for God but does sound as he is depicted, an adversary who slanders God and man.
The idea that Satan has no power does not align with the account in Job. Clearly Satan does have power to wreak havoc as he did against Job and his family. However, the account does show that Satan is powerless to go against a commandment of God. God does not allow Satan to kill Job and indeed Satan is impotent to go against that commandment.
Its interesting that in the Bible Book of Daniel the adversaries of God, these spirit creatures, do have power (Daniel 10:13) The ancient Jews thus did have a reason to believe that these spirit creatures, including Satan, have power to oppose even those who are the true agents of God which is contrary to modern Jewish thinking.
It appears that modern day Jews rely on Isaiah 45:5-7 to believe that God created evil. However some things to consider. The word translated evil is from a Hebrew word that also means calamity, adversity. The word can also refer to moral evil but in this scripture of Isaiah we should look at the context. God is saying that he becomes the rewarder of a faithful Israel but also the punisher of a rebellious Israel. Hence its not moral evil that the scripture refers to but calamity or adversity for a rebellious people.
It is unthinkable that God created moral evil. The ancient Jews would have been aware of this from the description of God in Deuteronomy 32:3,4
One last point, many Christians do not use Satan as an excuse for their own shortcomings. Christians recognize this from both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. Compare Ecclesiastes 8:9 and Galatians 6:7
Possibly with alternate meaning of what the Messiah actually is. Jesus is the only true Messiah--The one sent forth from God, from heaven, All the rest originated on earth as mortal never in heaven before. That's the difference.
There is no difference, Mashiach means annointed one, period...
Actually it was a Jewish source he used Richard, but obviously he either did not understand what the writer was saying or was disagreeing with the writer.
I noticed that...I know the site and the bulk of his post wasn’t from there...
The only scenario where satan can win is if Every mortal on earth turns from God--If 1 stands satan loses his life. He lost it all because he got jealous.
13 [You are] of eyes too pure to behold evil, and You cannot gaze upon iniquity. Why should You gaze upon traitors, be silent when a wicked man swallows up one more righteous than he?
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