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Is this not what you do? Do you believe that people with genuine faith can disagree about certain interpretations of Scripture? Did Jesus give us a means to reconcile this problem?
No. I do have a pastor, and I read other learned men's writings. But I realize none of them are infallible, as Scripture is
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Do you believe that people with genuine faith can disagree about certain interpretations of Scripture?
Yes, but not on the essentials that Scripture clearly teaches.
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Did Jesus give us a means to reconcile this problem?
Yes. Scripture.
The difference is that I believe what Scripture says, not what I believe that some preconceived notion of what God is about. You won't hear me say that it was written by a bunch of barbarians, so we have no reason to believe in it.
As for you believing the church over the Word? What if I were to show you something that is blatantly contradicted? There are some things that your church teaches that I believe are so blatantly against what the apostles taught, that they can't be reconciled.
Charlie, I'd like to hear then what is your take on exactly what Jesus was saying at Matthew 16:18-19 -
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Does this mean something other than what it says?
Be happy to! The foundation of the Church is the rock. That rock is not Peter, it's Christ!
In vs 16 when Peter said, "you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God," that is the ROCK that Christ said He would build His Church on! Not Peter.
In vs. 18 when Jesus said, "you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church," Jesus was referring to the name "Peter" which means a rock.
The Rock is the fact that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Yes, but not on the essentials that Scripture clearly teaches.
Which doctrines or teachings are "essential", and how do we know?
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
The difference is that I believe what Scripture says, not what I believe that some preconceived notion of what God is about. You won't hear me say that it was written by a bunch of barbarians, so we have no reason to believe in it.
You won't hear me say that, either. I too believe what Scripture says. The difference between us is our interpretation of Scripture, not the fact that we believe. We both believe.
I read Scripture through the lens of the Church, as I believe it was intended to be read; while you read Scripture through the lens of the Protestant reformers' interpretations.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
As for you believing the church over the Word?
I don't do this as the two are not in conflict.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
What if I were to show you something that is blatantly contradicted? There are some things that your church teaches that I believe are so blatantly against what the apostles taught, that they can't be reconciled.
Please do, I've been asking for specific examples.
Be happy to! The foundation of the Church is the rock. That rock is not Peter, it's Christ!
In vs 16 when Peter said, "you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God," that is the ROCK that Christ said He would build His Church on! Not Peter.
In vs. 18 when Jesus said, "you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church," Jesus was referring to the name "Peter" which means a rock.
The Rock is the fact that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God."
This is what the church is built on!
Does it bother you at all that literally nobody believed this until the 16th century or later?
Even most serious Protestant scholars don't believe this anymore. Christ was obviously talking about Peter as being the Rock on which His Church would be built. There really is no debate.
Be happy to! The foundation of the Church is the rock. That rock is not Peter, it's Christ!
In vs 16 when Peter said, "you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God," that is the ROCK that Christ said He would build His Church on! Not Peter.
In vs. 18 when Jesus said, "you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church," Jesus was referring to the name "Peter" which means a rock.
The Rock is the fact that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God."
This is what the church is built on!
This is correct, Charlie. It was Simon Bar-Jona who said Jesus was the Christ and Son of God. Jesus said that TRUTH was given to him by the Father and it is that TRUTH that was the rock on which Jesus would build His following. The name change of Simon nonsense is a self-serving mistranslation.
You won't hear me say that, either. I too believe what Scripture says. The difference between us is our interpretation of Scripture, not the fact that we believe. We both believe.
Do you believe that we are saved by grace, through faith alone? That nothing we can do will add to it?
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I read Scripture through the lens of the Church, as I believe it was intended to be read; while you read Scripture through the lens of the Protestant reformers' interpretations.
The thing is, the church has only interpreted a VERY small set of Scripture.
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I don't do this as the two are not in conflict.
The Council of Trent anathemetized anyone that believes in faith alone for salvation. That goes directly against Ephesians 2:8-9
Does it bother you at all that literally nobody believed this until the 16th century or later?
Even most serious Protestant scholars don't believe this anymore. Christ was obviously talking about Peter as being the Rock on which His Church would be built. There really is no debate.
It doesn't bother me at all what history may say!
I know that the true Church is not built on a mortal man!
It is built on the immortal Man, Christ Jesus, The Rock!
I am not a Catholic, and I do not believe in the primacy of Rome in the Christian church. As a matter of fact, prompted by this thread, I just quickly reread the section on Peter as Bishop of Rome in McCulloch's Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years, which is a pretty factual work written without any religious agenda, and curiously, there's no mention of any bishop in Rome in those early days, nor is there any evidence of the first few bishops who supposedly succeed Peter except for their names, as if the backstory was filled in later when Peter was established as the first Bishop of Rome, which eventually grew to the status of Pope.
However, there apparently IS good reason to believe that Peter was martyred and buried in Rome as per Catholic Tradition. From very early days, the grave of Peter was known to be within a cemetery inside Rome where both Christians and Pagans were buried, as well as some farm animals whose bones turned up in excavations. The first shrine was built over the grave thought to be Peter's in 160 CE, possibly as a 100-year commemoration of his death. That cemetery and grave is now under the Basilica of St. Peter, of course.
MicCulloch's work is not the only place where I have read that the location of Peter's grave in Rome is likely accurate, but I can no longer remember where else it was that I read it.
There may be truth in many of the Traditions. The Reformation may have thrown some babies out with the bathwater in a lot of cases. I am more interested in these details out of historical curiosity than defense of any one form of Christianity.
I haven't read that book yet, but I see clearly right in the bible in Galatians 2 where Paul states 'it was revealed to him to go back to Jerusalum to meet privately with the leaders of the church' and later get's in Peters faces about 'the old jewish law'. This early in the formation of the church they did not yet have formal terms as are used now as pope, bishop, cardinal, but rather used 'leaders of the church' and 'pillars of the church' clearly recognizing their authority, else why would God have sent him there to receive their approval, encouragement, and suggestion?
I know that the true Church is not built on a mortal man!
It is built on the immortal Man, Christ Jesus, The Rock!
It is built on the RISEN Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ who abides with us as the Comforter to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts" with agape love.
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This is correct, Charlie. It was Simon Bar-Jona who said Jesus was the Christ and Son of God. Jesus said that TRUTH was given to him by the Father and it is that TRUTH that was the rock on which Jesus would build His following. The name change of Simon nonsense is a self-serving mistranslation.