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Exactly. Isaiah 11:11-12 is talking about the second 'recovery.' That is the point I've been making. Now, for there to be a second recovery there must first be a first recovery. The second follows the first. Now historically there is only one event which meets the condition for Jews returning to the land from around the world (from the four corners of the earth) and that is the rebirth of Israel in 1948. Prior returns to Israel were from one location, not from all over the earth. If any of the earlier returns - from Egypt and Babylon could be the implied 'first' return then the Isaiah passage would be an inaccurate prophecy by referring to it as the 'second' recovery because the 1948 return lies between the earlier returns and the return referred to in Isaiah. Only the 1948 rebirth of Israel was a worldwide return though not all Jews on earth returned.
Therefore, the 1948 rebirth of Israel is a prophetic event because it is the necessary 'first' recovery of the Jews to the land. And to add to that, many of the Jews in Israel today want and are making efforts to rebuild the temple. The temple needs to be built before or during the Tribulation.
Ooops, sorry. I misread your question. You asked how could it NOT be considered a Prophetic Significant event, and I completely missed the word 'NOT.'
I agree. How could it not be considered a significant prophetic event?
Also, your other question. The Jews do have to accept Jesus as the Messiah before he will return. Jesus stated in Matthew 23:38-39 that their house would be left desolate until they call out, ''blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'' So when they do that Jesus will return and regather all Jews in a state of belief to Israel.
Jesus re-interpreted the OT directing all kingdom prophecies to Himself and Israel the Church. He blinded the Pharisees so they could not understand scripture. We should go by what Jesus says and not by what the Pharisees teach.
“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22–23 (KJV 1900)
This destruction began in AD70 and has been ongoing ever since.
Jesus re-interpreted the OT directing all kingdom prophecies to Himself and Israel the Church. He blinded the Pharisees so they could not understand scripture. We should go by what Jesus says and not by what the Pharisees teach.
“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22–23 (KJV 1900)
This destruction began in AD70 and has been ongoing ever since.
This isn't the thread for this argument. Start your own thread.
This isn't the thread for this argument. Start your own thread.
You ask; Does the Rebirth of Israel as a nation in 1948 have Prophetic Significance?
I answered NO and gave my reasons. A sincere reply to your question.
Exactly. Isaiah 11:11-12 is talking about the second 'recovery.' That is the point I've been making. Now, for there to be a second recovery there must first be a first recovery. The second follows the first. Now historically there is only one event which meets the condition for Jews returning to the land from around the world (from the four corners of the earth) and that is the rebirth of Israel in 1948. Prior returns to Israel were from one location, not from all over the earth. If any of the earlier returns - from Egypt and Babylon could be the implied 'first' return then the Isaiah passage would be an inaccurate prophecy by referring to it as the 'second' recovery because the 1948 return lies between the earlier returns and the return referred to in Isaiah. Only the 1948 rebirth of Israel was a worldwide return though not all Jews on earth returned.
Therefore, the 1948 rebirth of Israel is a prophetic event because it is the necessary 'first' recovery of the Jews to the land. And to add to that, many of the Jews in Israel today want and are making efforts to rebuild the temple. The temple needs to be built before or during the Tribulation.
Ooops, sorry. I misread your question. You asked how could it NOT be considered a Prophetic Significant event, and I completely missed the word 'NOT.'
I agree. How could it not be considered a significant prophetic event?
Also, your other question. The Jews do have to accept Jesus as the Messiah before he will return. Jesus stated in Matthew 23:38-39 that their house would be left desolate until they call out, ''blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'' So when they do that Jesus will return and regather all Jews in a state of belief to Israel.
Jeremiah makes it quite clear that the first recovery of Israel was from Egypt. That is why Isaiah told his people, "that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people."
Jeremiah16:14 "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;15 But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks."
There are two separate gatherings. Ephraim/Northern Kingdom of Israel and Southern Kingdom of Judah (the Jews). The Jews are gathered to the promised land of Palestine and Israel has been gathering to America. (subject for a different thread)
Notice that Israel, but not Judah, will be gathered by fishers and hunters sent out by God. This refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint missionary program. In its early stages it was gathering Israel to America. These two gatherings have been happening at the same time.
Isaiah 11:11 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel." This may have a dual meaning, but it perfectly describes the Latter-day Saints when they were cast out of Missouri and Illinois and assembled in Salt Lake Valley.
We have different opinions on this, but I appreciate your thoughtful OP. Thanks.
Jeremiah makes it quite clear that the first recovery of Israel was from Egypt. That is why Isaiah told his people, "that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people."
Jeremiah16:14 "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;15 But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks."
There are two separate gatherings. Ephraim/Northern Kingdom of Israel and Southern Kingdom of Judah (the Jews). The Jews are gathered to the promised land of Palestine and Israel has been gathering to America. (subject for a different thread)
Notice that Israel, but not Judah, will be gathered by fishers and hunters sent out by God. This refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint missionary program. In its early stages it was gathering Israel to America. These two gatherings have been happening at the same time.
Isaiah 11:11 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel." This may have a dual meaning, but it perfectly describes the Latter-day Saints when they were cast out of Missouri and Illinois and assembled in Salt Lake Valley.
We have different opinions on this, but I appreciate your thoughtful OP. Thanks.
I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. Of course there was a return to Israel from Egypt (although it was not as the Bible describes it. The Biblical writer embellished the actual event) but that was a return from one place - from Egypt. It was not a world wide return. The only world wide return of the Jews to Israel was associated with the 1948 rebirth of Israel.
Isaiah 11:11-12 talks of a SECOND and final world wide recovery of the Jews to Israel. The second recovery will be the final recovery because it occurs when Christ returns and the Jews will never again be exiled from the land. That means that there was only ONE prior world wide recovery of the Jews to Israel and that was in 1948 with the rebirth of Israel. All recoveries of the Jews to Israel prior to 1948 were from one location - Egypt, and then from Babylon.
If you are going to regard Egypt as the first recovery, then you have to regard Babylon as the second recovery, the rebirth of Israel in 1948 as the third recovery, and that would make the Isaiah 11:11-12 passage wrong because it speaks of a SECOND recovery, not a fourth recovery.
We will have to disagree concerning your comments about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But it may be that your views as a Mormon are why you disagree with what I'm saying.
If you want to, and if you don't that's fine, you can listen or read my source material for this thread. I first heard this years ago from the pastor at Country Bible Church in Brenham TX. The lessons on Modern Israel, titled 'Israel Regathered' are still online at their website. There are six lessons but lesson one is the one that I drew the material from for this thread. And again, you can either listen to the audio or read the notes.
The generation that sees Israel return as a nation will also see Christ return as well. The longest term for a generation in the book is apparently 80 years. I am a part of that generation born 1947. The end date is 2028.......can't be date setters but something could be happening soon.........in any case a wise decision to accept and believe the gospel of grace asap.........best decision you will ever make..........
Hm, I have most often seen a generation characterized as about 25 years as a rule of thumb. 80 would be quite the stretch. That's a human lifetime. There are always multiple generations alive at any moment in time.
You overlook the fact that the Church is Biblical Israel. Not the broken-off unbelievers that came about when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. It has no prophetic meaning.
No it is not. The church and Israel are two different peoples of God. And to claim that the church is Israel is an insult to all Jews and as far as I'm concerned is antisemitic.
No it is not. The church and Israel are two different peoples of God. And to claim that the church is Israel is an insult to all Jews and as far as I'm concerned is antisemitic.
I have nothing against Jews. I'm a follower of Christ and therefore love all people.
Might I suggest you're looking at this from a physical perspective instead of a spiritual one.
Paul said they are not all Israel who descend from Israel. It's not the children of the flesh who are true Israel but the children of promise. I agree with Paul.
Rom.9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
I have nothing against Jews. I'm a follower of Christ and therefore love all people.
Might I suggest you're looking at this from a physical perspective instead of a spiritual one.
Paul said they are not all Israel who descend from Israel. It's not the children of the flesh who are true Israel but the children of promise. I agree with Paul.
Rom.9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
The church are the children of promise.
Stop this quibbling over who God cares about and who Jesus saved. There are no such categories. We are ALL cared about and ALL were saved by Jesus, period!!! This childish sibling rivalry should have been outgrown millennia ago!!! That it hasn't is shameful and not remotely laudatory, IMO. What a disappointment we must be to God.
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