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I read Alma 32, and starting in verse 26 it starts talking about faith.
Verse 27 says "But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than adesire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words."
the "experiment" is to take a desire to believe and dwell on it until it becomes belief. This seems like only a "heart" influence, and seems to deny the "mind". I'd still like to know any "enlightenment of the mind" you have had. In other words, some evidence other than believing just because you want to.
You say that science does not contradict your beliefs? There's a lot of scientific evidence against the book of Mormon. For example, many anachronisms exist where Joseph Smith's stories don't follow what we know about "linguistic patterns, archaeological findings and known historical events." The apologist response is usually pretty weak compared to the scientific analysis. How does your mind reconcile these contradictions?
Logic, you have misunderstood Alma 32. I suggest you re-read it. Starting from verse 26 would be a good place to begin.
After you actually understand the message of chapter 32, I might consider discussing this matter with you further, though it is beginning to become apparent that you may not really have a true desire to know, but may just wish to argue.
If such is the case, I'm not going to waste my time.
Logic, you have misunderstood Alma 32. I suggest you re-read it. Starting from verse 26 would be a good place to begin.
After you actually understand the message of chapter 32, I might consider discussing this matter with you further, though it is beginning to become apparent that you may not really have a true desire to know, but may just wish to argue.
If such is the case, I'm not going to waste my time.
Ya, it talks about the word being a seed, that you plant in yourself by believing, and then it grows, thus strengthening your faith. It never says a skeptic could come to believe, because you have to plant the seed by believing or wanting to believe. Well, I planted the seed long ago by wanting to believe, and it must have been a bad seed because it died. Does that mean the religion is wrong? Or my ground is barren, which means I didn't nourish the seed. Nourishing, as far as I can tell, means reading pro-mormon things and promoting mormonism, while ignoring anti-mormon things.
So in essence, you have a desire to believe which is planting the seed, you nourish it (it doesn't say how but I can guess) and then you will have "knowledge." Ok, this basically means keep believing and promoting mormonism and eventually you will have "knowledge." Please fill me in if I missed something.
In any case, this is a test for faith, rather than a test for each prophet. Or does the tree's fruit of knowledge tell you if a prophet is true or not? If this is so, then what does the "fruit" do specifically so that you know it is a "yes" or a "no"?
You say that science does not contradict your beliefs? There's a lot of scientific evidence against the book of Mormon. For example, many anachronisms exist where Joseph Smith's stories don't follow what we know about "linguistic patterns, archaeological findings and known historical events." The apologist response is usually pretty weak compared to the scientific analysis. How does your mind reconcile these contradictions?
Wikipedia is not the most trusted source of scholarly information, though good sources can easily be found on the web. You clearly know very little about the subject and have not studied the text of the Book of Mormon. In fact, the "linguistic patterns" within the Book of Mormon provide very strong evidence as to its authenticity. There are also many archaelogical findings supportive of the Book of Mormon that are difficult to just sweep under the rug. As far as known historical events, part of that would be contingent on multiple other records having survived to come to us about a civilization which clearly was once very great but now is only a shadow of its prior grandeur.
You argue from a standpoint of incredulity... primarily just your own.
Is not the point of your thread really to cling to what you already wish to believe about the non-existence of God?
Ya, it talks about the word being a seed, that you plant in yourself by believing, and then it grows, thus strengthening your faith. It never says a skeptic could come to believe, because you have to plant the seed by believing or wanting to believe. Well, I planted the seed long ago by wanting to believe, and it must have been a bad seed because it died. Does that mean the religion is wrong? Or my ground is barren, which means I didn't nourish the seed. Nourishing, as far as I can tell, means reading pro-mormon things and promoting mormonism, while ignoring anti-mormon things.
So in essence, you have a desire to believe which is planting the seed, you nourish it (it doesn't say how but I can guess) and then you will have "knowledge." Ok, this basically means keep believing and promoting mormonism and eventually you will have "knowledge." Please fill me in if I missed something.
In any case, this is a test for faith, rather than a test for each prophet. Or does the tree's fruit of knowledge tell you if a prophet is true or not? If this is so, then what does the "fruit" do specifically so that you know it is a "yes" or a "no"?
You are starting to understand a bit more, but the hardness of your heart still makes it difficult for you. There are actually two types of knowledge discussed in this chapter. One is in regards to knowing of the existence of the tree which grows from the seed. The other is in regards to knowing and understanding the substance or nature of the tree which grows from the seed.... If you re-read this chapter, and this time pray and ask God sincerely in the name of Christ to help you understand the deeper meanings... your understanding will begin to be enlightened in this matter. However, you must pray with a real intent to follow God if you are to understand the deeper meanings of this passage. Otherwise, God is not going to give you the direction and guidance which you would then be held accountable for if you don't follow. God loves you too much for that.
The fruit this chapter refers to has nothing to do with knowing if a prophet is of God or not... rather it symbolic of something far greater. It ties into understanding what the substance of the tree is and what it's natural byproduct would therefore be.
Wikipedia is not the most trusted source of scholarly information, though good sources can easily be found on the web. You clearly know very little about the subject and have not studied the text of the Book of Mormon. In fact, the "linguistic patterns" within the Book of Mormon provide very strong evidence as to its authenticity. There are also many archaelogical findings supportive of the Book of Mormon that are difficult to just sweep under the rug. As far as known historical events, part of that would be contingent on multiple other records having survived to come to us about a civilization which clearly was once very great but now is only a shadow of its prior grandeur.
You argue from a standpoint of incredulity... primarily just your own.
Is not the point of your thread really to cling to what you already wish to believe about the non-existence of God?
where are the archaeological finds at the Hill Cumorah, where supposedly 2 million people fought using metal armor and weapons? What about the DNA inconsistencies with Native Americans, which the book of Mormon was changed to reconcile? Many other examples abound.
You are starting to understand a bit more, but the hardness of your heart still makes it difficult for you. There are actually two types of knowledge discussed in this chapter. One is in regards to knowing of the existence of the tree which grows from the seed. The other is in regards to knowing and understanding the substance or nature of the tree which grows from the seed.... If you re-read this chapter, and this time pray and ask God sincerely in the name of Christ to help you understand the deeper meanings... your understanding will begin to be enlightened in this matter. However, you must pray with a real intent to follow God if you are to understand the deeper meanings of this passage. Otherwise, God is not going to give you the direction and guidance which you would then be held accountable for if you don't follow. God loves you too much for that.
The fruit this chapter refers to has nothing to do with knowing if a prophet is of God or not... rather it symbolic of something far greater. It ties into understanding what the substance of the tree is and what it's natural byproduct would therefore be.
So basically you are telling me to truly believe, and then I will be able to believe. I have to believe that God will listen in order to "ask sincerely". Thus accomplishing the goal before the act ever commenced.
Anyway, I was looking for a test for prophets, so you don't get duped. But I guess there really isn't one.
where are the archaeological finds at the Hill Cumorah, where supposedly 2 million people fought using metal armor and weapons? What about the DNA inconsistencies with Native Americans, which the book of Mormon was changed to reconcile? Many other examples abound.
Logic, I suggest you check out the link I already provided. The examples you provide are either inaccurate and/or based on what are very likely to be false assumptions.
I will help you out by giving you a very easy starting point, also provided graciously by Paul McNabb in the link I provided.
So basically you are telling me to truly believe, and then I will be able to believe. I have to believe that God will listen in order to "ask sincerely". Thus accomplishing the goal before the act ever commenced.
Anyway, I was looking for a test for prophets, so you don't get duped. But I guess there really isn't one.
Nope, that is not what I am telling you. The witness of God involves enlightenment to the mind and the heart. It requires both study and prayer. Belief is required to do the necessary testing to obtain this witness (or series of witnesses) but the witness(es) is (are) not belief, it is (are) knowledge....
Such is the case with any scientific experiment... some degree of belief must exist to even experiment in the first place.
Have you tried to pray about this passage with real intent to follow God or whatever the answer may be so you can gain the deeper meanings that are in this passage?
My heart is open, to my family, to my fellow humans. I am careful not to let my illogical, emotional heart close my mind.
And if you get emotionally charged by a powerful speech, it doesn't necessarily mean it is right. You have to let reason keep emotions in check, without stifling them of course. Otherwise you could have been caught up in Jim Jones' group, or David Coresh's. Or bought into Warren Jeffs' Fundamentalist LDS group. Or been womanized because of polygamy in the regular LDS church, or raped as a boy by a Catholic priest.
Religion is a powerful tool for manipulation, and many evil but charismatic people know that. You have to question motivations, and humans are notorious for hidden agendas. By following your heart alone, without reason, you can easily become a victim, or a pawn in someone's power trip; and you may never even know it.
Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
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