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I put this in a separate thread so no one gets offended. This is the best article I've read on "law vs. grace" issue. It's about 5 pages, but well worth the read.
I put this in a separate thread so no one gets offended. This is the best article I've read on "law vs. grace" issue. It's about 5 pages, but well worth the read.
I read the article. Pertaining to the second paragraph of the article, I personally have never believed that salvation under the Old Covenant was works based, but that the means of salvation is the same in every dispensation of human history. By grace through faith in Christ. For us living in that part of history after Christ came into the world and died for the sins of the world, we believe in Him for eternal salvation. For all who lived prior to the time that Jesus went to the cross, the issue was believing, trusting the promise of His coming. Compare Revelation 22:17 with Isaiah 55:1. Both are invitations to come to the water of life without cost, to come to the Lord for blessing and salvation.
The article asked how the apostle Paul viewed the Torah (Law) and lists a number of verses in which Paul speaks favorably of the Law. However, the issue for the Christian, for the believer living in the dispensation of the Church is whether he is under the law. Paul very clearly states that as church-age believers we are not under the law. The author of the article did not list any of those verses. However, I will list some of them.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Paul states twice in the above two verses that we are not under law but are under grace.
Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2] For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3] So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5] For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6] But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
In Rom. 7:1-6 Paul goes on to explain that just as a married woman is no longer bound by law to her husband once he dies, but is released from the law, so also the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives. But we as believers in Christ Jesus were made to die to the law, to be released from it through the body of Christ. Christ died and was raised, and when a person believes in Christ Jesus he is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. Romans 6:2-8 states that we as church-age believers have been baptized into Jesus' death. Therefore, having been baptized into His death, we are released from the Law.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24] Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27] For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
In Gal. 3:2-27 Paul states that the purpose of the law was to be a tutor which led us to Christ. But now that faith has come we are no longer under the tutorship of the law because we have been baptized into Christ.
Unless one recognizes and understands the dispensational aspects of God's plan for human history one cannot rightly divide the word of truth. In the present dispensation of the church the believer is in Christ Jesus and so is not under the law of Moses, or Mosaic law. There is no requirement for the church-age believer to keep the various statutes, the various days, months, seasons, the various feast days that were a part of the Mosaic law.
Having said all of that, when the church-age believer loves his neighbor as himself, he fulfills what James calls the royal law in James 2:8, and the law of liberty in James 1:25 and 2:12.
Some people make an issue out of keeping special days, Sabbaths, feast days. But Paul was very clear that whether a person regards one day above another day, or whether he regards every day alike, is an individual matter of conscience, and no one is to judge another one way or the other on the matter (Roman chapters 14).
There are some Messianic Jews posting on this forum. If those of you who are Messianic Jews feel compelled, or simply desire to observe the feast days and Sabbaths, and the dietary restrictions of Judaism, then do so. But if you try to impose those things on others, you are out of line.
I read the article. Pertaining to the second paragraph of the article, I personally have never believed that salvation under the Old Covenant was works based, but that the means of salvation is the same in every dispensation of human history. By grace through faith in Christ. For us living in that part of history after Christ came into the world and died for the sins of the world, we believe in Him for eternal salvation. For all who lived prior to the time that Jesus went to the cross, the issue was believing, trusting the promise of His coming. Compare Revelation 22:17 with Isaiah 55:1. Both are invitations to come to the water of life without cost, to come to the Lord for blessing and salvation.
The article asked how the apostle Paul viewed the Torah (Law) and lists a number of verses in which Paul speaks favorably of the Law. However, the issue for the Christian, for the believer living in the dispensation of the Church is whether he is under the law. Paul very clearly states that as church-age believers we are not under the law. The author of the article did not list any of those verses. However, I will list some of them.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Paul states twice in the above two verses that we are not under law but are under grace.
Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2] For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3] So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5] For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6] But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
In Rom. 7:1-6 Paul goes on to explain that just as a married woman is no longer bound by law to her husband once he dies, but is released from the law, so also the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives. But we as believers in Christ Jesus were made to die to the law, to be released from it through the body of Christ. Christ died and was raised, and when a person believes in Christ Jesus he is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. Romans 6:2-8 states that we as church-age believers have been baptized into Jesus' death. Therefore, having been baptized into His death, we are released from the Law.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24] Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27] For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
In Gal. 3:2-27 Paul states that the purpose of the law was to be a tutor which led us to Christ. But now that faith has come we are no longer under the tutorship of the law because we have been baptized into Christ.
Unless one recognizes and understands the dispensational aspects of God's plan for human history one cannot rightly divide the word of truth. In the present dispensation of the church the believer is in Christ Jesus and so is not under the law of Moses, or Mosaic law. There is no requirement for the church-age believer to keep the various statutes, the various days, months, seasons, the various feast days that were a part of the Mosaic law.
Having said all of that, when the church-age believer loves his neighbor as himself, he fulfills what James calls the royal law in James 2:8, and the law of liberty in James 1:25 and 2:12.
Some people make an issue out of keeping special days, Sabbaths, feast days. But Paul was very clear that whether a person regards one day above another day, or whether he regards every day alike, is an individual matter of conscience, and no one is to judge another one way or the other on the matter (Roman chapters 14).
There are some Messianic Jews posting on this forum. If those of you who are Messianic Jews feel compelled, or simply desire to observe the feast days and Sabbaths, and the dietary restrictions of Judaism, then do so. But if you try to impose those things on others, you are out of line.
I doubt any messianic jew would impose any such thing.
Only encourage believers to read and study the Torah.
And the heritage roots of Messiah.
Still Saul of Tarsus was a Pharisees which probably based his faithless belief on works of the law , were God had His rules for His Temple and keeping people from the devil , but God sill required love and humility Justice , which the Pharisee faith lacked , and the laws for the temple became lost as the arch of the covenant was gone for example , and then like the faith of Abraham and even Moses and Elijah was missing in the Pharisee............... Where the Holy Spirit was almost always missing in the faith of the Israelites , so without this grace of God then legalism which is a false belief system comes into place replacing God
Still Saul of Tarsus was a Pharisees which probably based his faithless belief on works of the law , were God had His rules for His Temple and keeping people from the devil , but God sill required love and humility Justice , which the Pharisee faith lacked , and the laws for the temple became lost as the arch of the covenant was gone for example , and then like the faith of Abraham and even Moses and Elijah was missing in the Pharisee............... Where the Holy Spirit was almost always missing in the faith of the Israelites , so without this grace of God then legalism which is a false belief system comes into place replacing God
Still Saul of Tarsus was a Pharisees which probably based his faithless belief on works of the law , were God had His rules for His Temple and keeping people from the devil , but God sill required love and humility Justice , which the Pharisee faith lacked , and the laws for the temple became lost as the arch of the covenant was gone for example , and then like the faith of Abraham and even Moses and Elijah was missing in the Pharisee............... Where the Holy Spirit was almost always missing in the faith of the Israelites , so without this grace of God then legalism which is a false belief system comes into place replacing God
Pharisees faithless???
a member of an ancient Jewish sect, distinguished by strict observance of the oral law (Talmud). They are the spiritual fathers of modern Judaism.
I put this in a separate thread so no one gets offended. This is the best article I've read on "law vs. grace" issue. It's about 5 pages, but well worth the read.
People can't separate love for the law from the law. They assume since you love the law that your concept is that you need to keep the law to be saved when salvation doesn't even enter into the picture. Christians are born bias against the law, they think there is only one way to keep the law, and that is in fear when it is just the opposite. Tens of thousands of Jews believed in Jesus and became even more zealous in keeping the law than when they didn't believe in Jesus. They become more zealous because the punishment has been take away. Then you have anti-Semitic Christians who hate the law just because they hate Jews, and their hate is so racist that they don't want to follow God because the Jews follow God.
I have never told anyone to keep the law and I don't keep the law but I love the law, and my love for the law deems me a legalistic person who says you gotta keep the law to be saved.
The people who speak ill of the law know nothing about the law or Christ.
People can't separate love for the law from the law. They assume since you love the law that your concept is that you need to keep the law to be saved when salvation doesn't even enter into the picture. Christians are born bias against the law, they think there is only one way to keep the law, and that is in fear when it is just the opposite. Tens of thousands of Jews believed in Jesus and became even more zealous in keeping the law than when they didn't believe in Jesus. They become more zealous because the punishment has been take away. Then you have anti-Semitic Christians who hate the law just because they hate Jews, and their hate is so racist that they don't want to follow God because the Jews follow God.
I have never told anyone to keep the law and I don't keep the law but I love the law, and my love for the law deems me a legalistic person who says you gotta keep the law to be saved.
The people who speak ill of the law know nothing about the law or Christ.
I read the article. Pertaining to the second paragraph of the article, I personally have never believed that salvation under the Old Covenant was works based, but that the means of salvation is the same in every dispensation of human history. By grace through faith in Christ. For us living in that part of history after Christ came into the world and died for the sins of the world, we believe in Him for eternal salvation. For all who lived prior to the time that Jesus went to the cross, the issue was believing, trusting the promise of His coming. Compare Revelation 22:17 with Isaiah 55:1. Both are invitations to come to the water of life without cost, to come to the Lord for blessing and salvation.
The article asked how the apostle Paul viewed the Torah (Law) and lists a number of verses in which Paul speaks favorably of the Law. However, the issue for the Christian, for the believer living in the dispensation of the Church is whether he is under the law. Paul very clearly states that as church-age believers we are not under the law. The author of the article did not list any of those verses. However, I will list some of them.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Paul states twice in the above two verses that we are not under law but are under grace.
Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2] For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3] So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5] For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6] But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
In Rom. 7:1-6 Paul goes on to explain that just as a married woman is no longer bound by law to her husband once he dies, but is released from the law, so also the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives. But we as believers in Christ Jesus were made to die to the law, to be released from it through the body of Christ. Christ died and was raised, and when a person believes in Christ Jesus he is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. Romans 6:2-8 states that we as church-age believers have been baptized into Jesus' death. Therefore, having been baptized into His death, we are released from the Law.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24] Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27] For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
In Gal. 3:2-27 Paul states that the purpose of the law was to be a tutor which led us to Christ. But now that faith has come we are no longer under the tutorship of the law because we have been baptized into Christ.
Unless one recognizes and understands the dispensational aspects of God's plan for human history one cannot rightly divide the word of truth. In the present dispensation of the church the believer is in Christ Jesus and so is not under the law of Moses, or Mosaic law. There is no requirement for the church-age believer to keep the various statutes, the various days, months, seasons, the various feast days that were a part of the Mosaic law.
Having said all of that, when the church-age believer loves his neighbor as himself, he fulfills what James calls the royal law in James 2:8, and the law of liberty in James 1:25 and 2:12.
Some people make an issue out of keeping special days, Sabbaths, feast days. But Paul was very clear that whether a person regards one day above another day, or whether he regards every day alike, is an individual matter of conscience, and no one is to judge another one way or the other on the matter (Roman chapters 14).
There are some Messianic Jews posting on this forum. If those of you who are Messianic Jews feel compelled, or simply desire to observe the feast days and Sabbaths, and the dietary restrictions of Judaism, then do so. But if you try to impose those things on others, you are out of line.
Did you notice in Romans where it states that we are made to die to the law? Another way to put that is, that by our death of our flesh, the law no longer has any power over us, ONLY BECAUSE there is no flesh left to kill. Which is why it says that while we are/were in the flesh the law aroused within us sinful passions.
Did you also notice that it says the MARRIED (you must FIRST be "joined" to the law in the first place, as your husband you are to listen and submit to) woman is released from the law (that only concerns) CONCERNING HER HUSBAND?
In other words, she is not married (again; you FIRST have to BE MARRIED TO IT FOR THIS TO APPLY) to the law if the law "dies" (is of none effect anymore) BECAUSE there is no flesh left to "kill". THEN and ONLY THEN, is "she" free to marry Christ, which is why ALL OF US are waiting on a bridegroom. And if the bridegroom is not here yet, then neither has the wedding taken place, because you can't have a wedding without the groom.
Paul is telling them the ONLY WAY out of the law exacting it's "pound of flesh" is TO DIE TO THE FLESH. Now if any here be a perfect man, let them go raise the dead (for the wages of NOT DYING to the flesh/sin, IS DEATH). And since a divided house cannot stand, wonder why none of you are rushing to raise the dead? Isn't it the same as because death is still ruling over you on behalf of sinful flesh and so your house is divided still? Yes, it is.
So then, who is not under the law here? NO ONE, yet, which is why he says later that if any man says he does not sin, the truth is not in him, he's a liar. And if you look again to the above statements by Paul, he gives the solution, and like it or not, it's the law, because the law is the ministry of condemnation (ministers death to the hearer), that's it's job, to convict of sin (which is defined by the law) so that THEN we can reconcile it through the Spirit we have received, in the same manner as prescribed by the law = make of YOURSELVES a LIVING SACRIFICE = die to the flesh, that the law loses it's power over that part of your flesh, so that the Spirit can cleanse the heart of that issue of blood, and then "raise" that portion up into Christ where there is no longer any warfare between flesh and Spirit. Peace
Last edited by Rbbi1; 04-05-2017 at 12:45 PM..
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Isn't it the same as because death is still ruling over you on behalf of sinful flesh and so your house is divided still? Yes, it is. 
