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Now I do not want to start a thread that is arguement centered but what I do want is to look at every verse pertaining to homosexuality whether directly or indirectly and discuss context, history, and definitions.
This thread is closed for now, will be reviewed by the moderators to determine as to whether to reopen it or not.
It has been determined, after a long discussion among the moderators to reopen this thread, however, knowing that this is a very touchy and volatile subject this will be a civil discussion, there will be no name-calling, no Gay bashing, no Christian bashing, and no other innuendos associated with any of these lifestyle's, you will stick to the topic at hand, any deviation could possibly result in the issuing of infractions.
It has been determined, after a long discussion among the moderators to reopen this thread, however, knowing that this is a very touchy and volatile subject this will be a civil discussion, there will be no name-calling, no gay bashing, and no other innuendos associated with this lifestyle, you will stick to the topic at hand, any deviation could possibly result in the issuing of infractions.
I thank all the moderators and I am preparing some information for discussion. I will give a hint if others want to look into it as well I am starting with Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Remember we are looking at original languages (a concordance and interlinier Bible will help), context among the verses, historical context. I realize there are other verses in other areas of the Bible but lets start here.
The Following is for context of surrounding verses;
Chapter 18
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and tell them: I, the LORD, am your God. 3 You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you once lived, nor shall you do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you; do not conform to their customs. 4 My decrees you shall carry out, and my statutes you shall take care to follow. I, the LORD, am your God. 5 Keep, then, my statutes and decrees, for the man who carries them out will find life through them. I am the LORD. 6 1 "None of you shall approach a close relative to have sexual intercourse with her. I am the LORD. 7 You shall not disgrace your father by having intercourse with your mother. Besides, since she is your own mother, you shall not have intercourse with her. 8 You shall not have intercourse with your father's wife, for that would be a disgrace to your father. 9 You shall not have intercourse with your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in your own household or born elsewhere. 10 You shall not have intercourse with your son's daughter or with your daughter's daughter, for that would be a disgrace to your own family. 11 You shall not have intercourse with the daughter whom your father's wife bore to him, since she, too, is your sister. 12 You shall not have intercourse with your father's sister, since she is your father's relative. 13 You shall not have intercourse with your mother's sister, since she is your mother's relative. 14 You shall not disgrace your father's brother by being intimate with his wife, since she, too, is your aunt. 15 You shall not have intercourse with your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife, and therefore you shall not disgrace her. 16 2 You shall not have intercourse with your brother's wife, for that would be a disgrace to your brother. 17 You shall not have intercourse with a woman and also with her daughter, nor shall you marry and have intercourse with her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; this would be shameful, because they are related to her. 18 While your wife is still living you shall not marry her sister as her rival; for thus you would disgrace your first wife. 19 "You shall not approach a woman to have intercourse with her while she is unclean from menstruation. 20 You shall not have carnal relations with your neighbor's wife, defiling yourself with her. 21 3 You shall not offer any of your offspring to be immolated to Molech, thus profaning the name of your God. I am the LORD. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination. 23 You shall not have carnal relations with an animal, defiling yourself with it; nor shall a woman set herself in front of an animal to mate with it; such things are abhorrent. 24 "Do not defile yourselves by any of these things by which the nations whom I am driving out of your way have defiled themselves. 25 Because their land has become defiled, I am punishing it for its wickedness, by making it vomit out its inhabitants. 26 You, however, whether natives or resident aliens, must keep my statutes and decrees forbidding all such abominations 27 by which the previous inhabitants defiled the land; 28 otherwise the land will vomit you out also for having defiled it, just as it vomited out the nations before you. 29 Everyone who does any of these abominations shall be cut off from among his people. 30 Heed my charge, then, not to defile yourselves by observing the abominable customs that have been observed before you. I, the LORD, am your God." From the way it looks IMO we are not to have any sexual relationship outside of marriage, no sexual realtions with relatives or neighbors, no sexual relations with the same sex or animals. I could be wrong but we can get into that when we look at the original language.
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
There seems to be a very negative association with homosexuality.
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
There seems to be a very negative association with homosexuality.
I thought this thread was supposed to be discussing the verses in context and historical context? Not just copying and pasting verses out of context.
So would you like to discuss:
Who Paul was writing about and to?
What prompted him to write this letter?
What had the people he was talking about done?
What were the pagan worshipping practices in temples in Rome during that period?
Who were the gods these converted Christians had reverted to worshipping?
What were the cultural views at the time (if any) about sexual orientation?
I don't believe Paul was talking about homosexuals at all in these verses. These were heterosexual people who had been converted to Christianity but had reverted to pagan worship of fertility gods. In Rome at that time, this practice involved ritual sex worship which would include drugs that would whip the participants up into a sexual frenzy where they would have sex with anyone of either sex- which would not be "natural" for people who were inherently heterosexual.
Taken in context of the whole of 1 Romans and not just cherry picking that verse out of context, Paul was writing about former Christians who had reverted back to pagan worship- NOT homosexuals.
The Following is for context of surrounding verses;
Chapter 18
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and tell them: I, the LORD, am your God. 3 You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you once lived, nor shall you do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you; do not conform to their customs. 4 My decrees you shall carry out, and my statutes you shall take care to follow. I, the LORD, am your God. 5 Keep, then, my statutes and decrees, for the man who carries them out will find life through them. I am the LORD. 6 1 "None of you shall approach a close relative to have sexual intercourse with her. I am the LORD. 7 You shall not disgrace your father by having intercourse with your mother. Besides, since she is your own mother, you shall not have intercourse with her. 8 You shall not have intercourse with your father's wife, for that would be a disgrace to your father. 9 You shall not have intercourse with your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in your own household or born elsewhere. 10 You shall not have intercourse with your son's daughter or with your daughter's daughter, for that would be a disgrace to your own family. 11 You shall not have intercourse with the daughter whom your father's wife bore to him, since she, too, is your sister. 12 You shall not have intercourse with your father's sister, since she is your father's relative. 13 You shall not have intercourse with your mother's sister, since she is your mother's relative. 14 You shall not disgrace your father's brother by being intimate with his wife, since she, too, is your aunt. 15 You shall not have intercourse with your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife, and therefore you shall not disgrace her. 16 2 You shall not have intercourse with your brother's wife, for that would be a disgrace to your brother. 17 You shall not have intercourse with a woman and also with her daughter, nor shall you marry and have intercourse with her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; this would be shameful, because they are related to her. 18 While your wife is still living you shall not marry her sister as her rival; for thus you would disgrace your first wife. 19 "You shall not approach a woman to have intercourse with her while she is unclean from menstruation. 20 You shall not have carnal relations with your neighbor's wife, defiling yourself with her. 21 3 You shall not offer any of your offspring to be immolated to Molech, thus profaning the name of your God. I am the LORD. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination. 23 You shall not have carnal relations with an animal, defiling yourself with it; nor shall a woman set herself in front of an animal to mate with it; such things are abhorrent. 24 "Do not defile yourselves by any of these things by which the nations whom I am driving out of your way have defiled themselves. 25 Because their land has become defiled, I am punishing it for its wickedness, by making it vomit out its inhabitants. 26 You, however, whether natives or resident aliens, must keep my statutes and decrees forbidding all such abominations 27 by which the previous inhabitants defiled the land; 28 otherwise the land will vomit you out also for having defiled it, just as it vomited out the nations before you. 29 Everyone who does any of these abominations shall be cut off from among his people. 30 Heed my charge, then, not to defile yourselves by observing the abominable customs that have been observed before you. I, the LORD, am your God." From the way it looks IMO we are not to have any sexual relationship outside of marriage, no sexual realtions with relatives or neighbors, no sexual relations with the same sex or animals. I could be wrong but we can get into that when we look at the original language.
So how about some points for discussion?
What was the purpose of the Holiness Code in Leviticus chapters 17 to 26?
Who was this code specifically directed at and why?
What were the cultural and religious practices of the Canaanites?
Notice verse 21 immediately before the verse in question? You shall not offer any of your offspring to be immolated to Molech, thus profaning the name of your God. Are the following verses related to the practices involved with worshipping Molech in pagan temples?
Who was the god Molech and what were the worshipping practices in pagan temples?
What was the position of women in the culture at that time?
Great idea, I’ll answer a few questions and then probably ask one or two myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
What was the purpose of the Holiness Code in Leviticus chapters 17 to 26?
God’s faithful are called to holy living in any age.
1 Thes 4: 4-7
“Not in the lust of concupisence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness”
Eph 4: 17-19
“This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: who being past feeling have given themselves over into lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness”
1 Cor 5: 11
“But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat”
2 Pet 1: 4
“Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
Who was this code specifically directed at and why?
This question is answered in verse 2.
Lev 18: 2
“Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
What were the cultural and religious practices of the Canaanites?
Easton’s Bible Dictionary (excerpt)
Quote:
"Canaanites," as distinguished from the Amalekites, the Anakim, and the Rephaim, were "dwellers in the lowlands" #Nu 13:29 the great plains and valleys, the richest and most important parts of Palestine. Tyre and Sidon, their famous cities, were the centres of great commercial activity; and hence the name "Canaanite" came to signify a "trader" or "merchant" #Job 41:6 Pr 31:24 lit. "Canaanites;" comp. #Zep 1:11 Eze 17:4 The name "Canaanite" is also sometimes used to designate the non-Israelite inhabitants of the land in general #Ge 12:6 Nu 21:3 Jud 1:10 The Israelites, when they were led to the Promised Land, were commanded utterly to destroy the descendants of Canaan then possessing it #Ex 23:23 Nu 33:52,53 #De 20:16,17 This was to be done "by little and little," lest the beasts of the field should increase #Ex 23:29 De 7:22,23 The history of these wars of conquest is given in the Book of Joshua. The extermination of these tribes, however, was never fully carried out.
The children if Israel just left Egypt where they lived as the Egyptians did, they had done all these things which are forbidden by the Lord. Our Lord separates His people from the influence of that sinful society. They were going to the land of Canaan, a land flowing with milk and honey which is also occupied by the Canaanites. They too practiced immorality. The Israelites’ were stuck in the middle, the Egyptians were behind them, and the Canaanites were ahead of them. An optimal time for God’s law to be clarified was at hand; therefore we have a call to holiness recorded in Leviticus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
Notice verse 21 immediately before the verse in question? You shall not offer any of your offspring to be immolated to Molech, thus profaning the name of your God. Are the following verses related to the practices involved with worshipping Molech in pagan temples?
I believe so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
Who was the god Molech and what were the worshipping practices in pagan temples?
Molech was the god or idol to whom child sacrifices were made. This detestable ritual profanes the holy name of God.
Lev 20: 3
“And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.”
The unnatural brutality of this pagan rite was a deep profaning of the name of the true God. God’s love of children is evident in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. The Lord Jesus said, “Let them come to Me.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
What does the Hebrew word to'ebah mean?
(to'ebah):
Abomination of the highest degree; originally that which offends the religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
Who practices the Holiness Code in modern times?
All God’s children are called to holiness as is demonstrated through Scripture; both Old and New Testaments.
Your questions imply that Jesus has “released” His faithful from abiding by His commands. Am I correct? If so can you support your understanding from Scripture?
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