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Children may or may not be the result of sex outside of marriage..I don't think God planned it. The couple "chose" to have sex outside of marriage and the consequence of their choice could be several things besides a child..Could get an SDS..Which I don't think is Gods plan either since I don't think he punishes us by giving us sexually transmitted diseases..They are the result of a very bad choice..The important thing is is that the couple care for, love and raise the baby together if at all possible..That is a choice God would be pleased with..God gives us the freedom to make our own choices through freewill..It becomes our choice, not necessarily Gods plan for us..If we fail to make the right choices He is always there ..waiting for us to return to Him..
Children may or may not be the result of sex outside of marriage..I don't think God planned it. The couple "chose" to have sex outside of marriage and the consequence of their choice could be several things besides a child..Could get an SDS..Which I don't think is Gods plan either since I don't think he punishes us by giving us sexually transmitted diseases..They are the result of a very bad choice..The important thing is is that the couple care for, love and raise the baby together if at all possible..That is a choice God would be pleased with..God gives us the freedom to make our own choices through freewill..It becomes our choice, not necessarily Gods plan for us..If we fail to make the right choices He is always there ..waiting for us to return to Him..
Okay I have had children out side of marriage and believe me there are consiquences its not just STD's it is a meriad of issues, I like how it's being said one has the free will not to follow God but doesn't have free will to follow God. Gods plan is for us to fallow his plan every thing else is following your plan and that will always fail why because it will be my will be done thy will will not. Because adualtry is sin one needs to repent and follow GODS will that means stop comitting sin and obey GOD except the consiquence for what you have done and give it to the Lord to do what is right in his eyes not yours not your best friend not Oprah or doc phil or cosmo or mtv but what is right in his eyes!That is if being made righteous is worth a darn to you if not then carry on as you where.
And if some thinks that sounds a little to fiery brimstone just ignore it as some think God ignores sin!
According to the bible it's a sin, we already know this. The question is, Did God plan for that child to be born? How can it be God's plan if he is against it?
There are so many children that were born this way and if they weren't then the world would be LESS populated, which would be a good thing.
Yes, unlike a lot of the posters on here that just give their opinions but no scripture to back it up, let`s look at what the scriptures say instead of just a bunch of opnions or church taughtology.
Did God create that child? Let`s see what the bible says.
“For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist [‘has its cohesion,’ ]” (Col. 1:16-17).
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).
Is there a purpose for that child being born?
"To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).
"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).
"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).
So....
[1] "To every thing there is a season[appointed time],and a time to every purpose[matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1). AND:
[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).
which means:
[1] God has PREDETERMINED a PRE-APPOINTED TIME for EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS UNDER HEAVEN.
AND:
[2] Absolutely NOTHING can be ADDED TO OR TAKEN FROM this purpose of God’s.
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).
"For the creature [Gk: ‘creation’] was made [put under, subordinate to, to obey] subject to vanity [Gk: ‘futility’], not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope."
In our finite mind with limited reasoning we can`t see the future. We don`t know what tomorrow brings, but God does. We, as humans with limited reasoning and understanding may not know why the baby was born or for what cause. But other than just our opinions we have to have faith in God and what the scripture say. We know God creates everything. We know God has a purpose for every event and purpose in and under heaven. We trust and have faith because ALL belongs to him. This is his creation and he controls it, Whether we like it or not, Whether we approve of the way he is doing it or not, Whether we understand it or not... Makes no difference. For the scripture say..who are you oh man to reply against God? We, including those babies, are the potter and HE is the clay. He can do as he wills.
According to the bible it's a sin, we already know this. The question is, Did God plan for that child to be born? How can it be God's plan if he is against it?
June hasn't read any other posts in this thread yet. So she just needed to clarify that, and what it is she's about to say:
How can it be against God's plan if He recreated Himself in the Reality of that child? So here's my answer:
1- If every member on this forum who did not have sex before marriage ceased to post tomorrow, would this forum even be here?
2- Would it not be a complete insult to any child conceived prior to marriage to not be acknowledged? -Because that, in part, would be June's definition of "sin." -Just whose eyes are you looking into? In part your own? Your God's? Please, tell June.
To not question that the life before you is, in fact, a manifestation of yourown God.
June hasn't read any other posts in this thread yet. So she just needed to clarify that, and what it is she's about to say:
How can it be against God's plan if He recreated Himself in the Reality of that child? So here's my answer:
1- If every member on this forum who did not have sex before marriage ceased to post tomorrow, would this forum even be here?
2- Would it not be a complete insult to any child conceived prior to marriage to not be acknowledged? -Because that, in part, would be June's definition of "sin." -Just whose eyes are you looking into? In part your own? Your God's? Please, tell June.
To not question that the life before you is, in fact, a manifestation of yourown God.
--Because you are looking at him, aren't you...?
Take gentle care.
You gave some words to ponder on and I really can't disagree other than I believe it is God's will rather than plan
You gave some words to ponder on and I really can't disagree other than I believe it is God's will rather than plan
Fundamentalist, my friend, (yes, you are!) ya know what? That ^ works for me!
Hey, whether one believes that it is "God's will" or "God's plan" it would somehow appear to be the same to June. Could you clarify?
P.S. --Along with the fact that June is in shock that she and Fundamentalist could actually agree!? Now you've got me wondering whether that is "God's will" or "God's plan!"
Fundamentalist, my friend, (yes, you are!) ya know what? That ^ works for me!
Hey, whether one believes that it is "God's will" or "God's plan" it would somehow appear to be the same to June. Could you clarify?
P.S. --Along with the fact that June is in shock that she and Fundamentalist could actually agree!? Now you've got me wondering whether that is "God's will" or "God's plan!"
Take gentle care.
It's the lingo. When it pertains to God I am very careful to describe Him or His attributes, so scipture is the surest and safest bet. We all know from scripture ALL of this is God's preordained plan- He creates man, man falls, man needs a saviour, He sent His Son, He saves man, He gets ALL the glory. His plan will never be for anyone to sin because somehow that shows He causes it or generates sin in a person. He will never do that.
This is God's soverign will-one of a few wills (revealed will, permissive will. etc...). We know God is in control of everything, He prohibits many things from happening but allows also, so whatever happens is God's will, this is God's soverign will. This expression of God’s will focuses on the fact that God sovereignly ordains everything that comes to pass. In other words, there is nothing that happens that is outside of God’s sovereign will. He has the right to intervene by either permitting or stopping the actions of this world, EVERYTHING that happens for whatever reason? we don't know but His revealed will is for ALL to be saved. Personally I believe my father had to die of cancer in order for His son (I) to be saved.
Do you think it is luck, or man's passion for survival that we haven't destroyed each other by a nuclear war or the fact that we haven't been hit by a huge comet? I highly doubt that.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 05-23-2009 at 12:05 PM..
It's the lingo. When it pertains to God I am very careful to describe Him or His attributes, so scipture is the surest and safest bet.
Fundamentalist! You actually posted an answer for June!? Wow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
We all know from scripture ALL of this is God's preordained plan- He creates man, man falls, man needs a saviour, He sent His Son, He saves man, He gets ALL the glory. His plan will never be for anyone to sin because somehow that shows He causes it or generates sin in a person. He will never do that.
June's just 'going with the flow' here, as she truly wants to understand this in the context of the OP, regarding "Sex before Marriage," okay?
In general, June would agree (based on what she knows about the NT, Christianity, etc.) with what you have written, above. -But here's where it's not clear: While June is with ya on the above (in terms of her 'academic' understanding) the part that is throwing her is the inherent paradox in that statement. In other words, what June thinks you are saying is that God has pre-arranged, (if you will) all that will happen; all that "Is." -But June doesn't understand how -on the one hand- you can say that God had a preordained plan (creation, Adam and Eve, sin, and thus the necessity for a personal Savior) at the same time that you are saying that "His plan will never be for anyone to sin because somehow that shows He causes it or generates sin in a person. He will never do that."
That confuses June.
-Because implicit in what you are saying is this: That God pre-ordained his creation, the fall of man, AND the necessity of his own sovereignty. If God is not the pre-ordained creator of "sin" (Adam and Eve) and if He would never have created it, then wherein lies the basis for people to have choice as regards sinning? -In this case, engaging in sex before marriage. It's not making sense.
-It would make sense to June, however, if God did in fact pre-ordain the creation of sin, or at the very least, created within man an imperfect, sinful nature, in order to thereby provide man with a choice: To either accept and adhere to God's sovereignty, or not. --But ONLY as a means by which he could draw mankind to Him. -As a means of making Himself known. (Otherwise, who could have/would have created that imperfect, sinful nature in man? Satan? Then that would cancel out your words as regards God's sovereignty and omnipotence, no?
In other words: If I am in accordance with God's divine will and sovereignty, then I would choose not to have sex prior to marriage, according to Christianity. Yes? No?
(Is June even making sense here?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
This is God's soverign will-one of a few wills (revealed will, permissive will. etc...). We know God is in control of everything, He prohibits many things from happening but allows also, so whatever happens is God's will, this is God's soverign will. This expression of God’s will focuses on the fact that God sovereignly ordains everything that comes to pass. In other words, there is nothing that happens that is outside of God’s sovereign will. He has the right to intervene by either permitting or stopping the actions of this world, EVERYTHING that happens for whatever reason? we don't know but His revealed will is for ALL to be saved.
Okay, gotchya. But again, it is confusing June as to how God can both be in complete, total, pre-ordained sovereignty, (whereby nothing happens outside of that sovereignty,) at the same time that there can exist the concept of sin and the choice to engage in sex before marraige. --Implied within that concept being the notion of free will. As such, one can either align themselves in accordance to God's sovereignty, or not. (Hence, perhaps one of the definitions of sin, no?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Personally I believe my father had to die of cancer in order for His son (I) to be saved.
...And June is willing to accept your understanding as regards the above, despite the fact that it makes her sad. (She's sorry that you had to undergo that loss; that experience.) However, at the same time, it would make sense to her that in losing one's biological father (death) that perhaps it facilitated in some pre-ordained way the meaning of, the necessity for a sovereign, personal savior.
As both are ultimately "Fathers."
One manifesting Himself in the other, June would surmise...
Hence, God making Himself known through the ongoing process of His own creation.
Take gentle care.
P.S. If you respond to June's queries, herein, she would make only two requests: 1) To help her to better understand what it is that you are saying, and... 2) You'd better tell her "where is that in scripture!?" -Thanks, nice man!
P.S. If you respond to June's queries, herein, she would make only two requests: 1) To help her to better understand what it is that you are saying, and... 2) You'd better tell her "where is that in scripture!?" -Thanks, nice man!
Hey moderator, if I may, could you please get June 7th for me. I need to speak in her ear for a second
I don't think you will find a scripturally sound verse that explains which came first the "chicken or the egg". So I am of the mind that your question is something that only God will be able to anwser. But I'm sure man will keep chasing his proverbial tail trying to figure it out. JMHO
Hey moderator, if I may, could you please get June 7th for me. I need to speak in her ear for a second
I don't think you will find a scripturally sound verse that explains which came first the "chicken or the egg". So I am of the mind that your question is something that only God will be able to anwser. But I'm sure man will keep chasing his proverbial tail trying to figure it out. JMHO
It was the chicken, the egg couldn't have survived without a chicken to incubate it.
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ya know what? That ^ works for me! 
Now you've got me wondering whether that is "God's will" or "God's plan!"
