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If so, then what prevented him from creating us knowing good without having to experience evil?
Logic.
Could God have created a universe where 2+2 does not equal 4? I can't imagine it. But I'm not God.
And like you said, can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it? NO. Then why not?
Logic.
Quote:
The contrast issue is an explanation, but if it didn't HAVE to be that way, then what are the implications?
For instance,
Your in danger and I knock you in the head with a 2x4 in order to cause you to avoid that danger. But you learn that I could have just gave you a gentle push. Am I righteous because I saved you from danger by planing to hit you with a 2x4 when in truth I did not have to?
No. But I'm not sure this is very good analogy for why God created evil. Perhaps the question becomes:
Is God limitless if He can't defy the rules of logic? (ie. must 2+2=4 and must good co-exist with knowledge of evil?)
Did God create logic? Is that why it is logic? Or did logic pre-exist before God (somehow that seems impossible)? While we are at it, what defines good and bad? Is something good because God says so, or is something good because there is an absolute standard of "intrinsic goodness", which also happens to be what God defines as good (perhaps God created the absolute standard of good/evil and logic).
Anyway I'm with Fundy on this one, my head is starting to hurt!
I believe God could easily use rape, murder, suicide, etc. for purposes higher than the carnal mind can comprehend. He led His Son to the slaughter for reasons they couldn't grasp - what makes us better than Him?
The answer is because he can't. Because our perception of limitation is irrevalent.
But why can't he? Do you think He is limitless?
Do you think God could make a universe where it makes sense that 2+2=5?
I think this all comes down to logical constructs, or whatever you want to call them.
God brought order out of chaos. Perhaps part of that was creating logic, so that 2+2 must always equal 4, good must always be contrasted with evil, and God cannot do things that are illogical (making a rock so big He can't lift it).
I believe God could easily use rape, murder, suicide, etc. for purposes higher than the carnal mind can comprehend. He led His Son to the slaughter for reasons they couldn't grasp - what makes us better than Him?
It's called sovereignty, simply put.
Agree. I believe that evil in God's hands is a tool for good. All is out of Him, but that does not mean that He is evil. God bless.
Actually if logic brings self-limitation -> and self-limitation is really self-control, and self-control is a part of Love.
Therefore God is Love!
Part of God's love is to bring order and (self)control to the universe which involves a standard of logic, and thereby a standard of goodness, thus logically necessitating the existence of evil (at least for a season).
It's a simple matter of he can't and our perception of what is a limit is irrevelent.
My Carnal perception will tell me that a God who can't make a rock he can't lift must be explained in such a way that it removes the limitation it implies.
My spirituality knows that perception to be irrevalent.
To answer this question directly, no I do not think God is limitless. The question is what do the limits mean? To me they mean absolutely nothing at all.
The implication of limitless is actually what brings about all the moral difficulties forcing someone to eventually just declare "It's God, get over it" , thats not good enough, because it does not erase the moral implications at all.
I believe God could easily use rape, murder, suicide, etc. for purposes higher than the carnal mind can comprehend. He led His Son to the slaughter for reasons they couldn't grasp - what makes us better than Him?
It's called sovereignty, simply put.
Sad to say little E many beleive along those lines, God might just as well hold the child down while the pedophile has his way.
To me this is a very abhorrent view of our LOVING Father and is why I posted the link, to show others that we don't have to view our Father after this fashion.
But if others are comfortable with the view of God holding the child down while the pedophile has his way so be it, only God will change that view of Himself.
No wonder so many people want nothing to do with God, first their told God is going to torment them for eternity and then they are told all the evils, sin and death in the world are all according to His plan.
Anyway this will be my last post on this thread, everyone is free to beleive as they like, but I would suggest reading the link I provided because just maybe God gave me some understanding of Him and His ways in it, that take NOTHING away from His sovereignty but shows Him in a much better light.
Sad to say little E many beleive along those lines, God might just as well hold the child down while the pedophile has his way.
To me this is a very abhorrent view of our LOVING Father and is why I posted the link, to show others that we don't have to view our Father after this fashion.
But if others are comfortable with the view of God holding the child down while the pedophile has his way so be it, only God will change that view of Himself.
No wonder so many people want nothing to do with God, first their told God is going to torment them for eternity and then they are told all the evils, sin and death in the world are all according to His plan.
Anyway this will be my last post on this thread, everyone is free to beleive as they like, but I would suggest reading the link I provided because just maybe God gave me some understanding of Him and His ways in it, that take NOTHING away from His sovereignty but shows Him in a much better light.
God bless
I see Him as the Holy One, who's light and position we can't fathom - what we call good and righteous falls short of trying to comprehend the seat of His power. The alternative view of God is One who desires other than what is happening in His world, and I can't align that with what we know to be true about Him.
He ultimately has His way, though we can't perceive it now; Joseph and his brothers showed us a glimpse of "wrong" after "wrong" after "wrong", and we saw it as evil, but God meant it for good - "to save much people alive" as Gen 50:20 puts it.
I'm not saying that each act of brutality has God cheering it on, but the authority and governance is there - God is not only allowing it, but will turn captivity on itself, and weave this too into His tapestry's grand design.
We may not see eye to eye, but know that I understand that our view of God must be true to His character and nature, and I want to - if nothing else - see Him high and lifted up. So I must ascribe ultimate authority and power to Him.
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