Specific thread for debate - Universalism vs ET (Leviticus, hell, Sodom)

[Meerkat2]

For those on both sides who want to debate about UR vs ET can we have a specific thread for civil debate on scriptural support - no attacking the character of those on the other side.

In recent times it does seem to have taken over a bit and some others have suggested maybe a specific thread and I personally think it is a good idea.

[ShanaBrown]

Sounds good, Meerkat, for anyone interested. God bless.

[thrillobyte]

okay, I'll be the first. I'm on the fence. I've heard and read enough on the UR to make me want to research it more thoroughly, but no one, despite my repeated requests gave me a definitive scripture that specifically says to the effect, "I will punish you in hell-fire for your sins but it will be only temporary." All I got was, "Context, man, context; mistranslation of the Greek; it's symbolic; it's figurative; etc." Without a verse that definitely establishes UR and not, "Well, this is what Jesus and Paul REALLY meant by eternal," I'm afraid I must err on the side of ET. Better to be safe than sorry.

[ShanaBrown]

Some reasons why I believe that God will restore all mankind to Himself instead of sending the majority or any one to an eternal hell.

Agape love teaches us to love our enemies, (Luke 6:35) therefore God who knows all things, does not create people knowing with full knowledge that they will burn in an everlasting hell with no hope for salvation. The faith that God has given me tells me that God is not a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. God is just, righteous, holy, merciful, longsuffering, and overcomes evil with good. This faith teaches me that God has all power. No heart is too hard that it cannot be penetrated by the love and power of God. He made all hearts and knows how to reach each and everyone. He has all power and is able to subdue all things to Himself. All were under the sentence of sin and death due to Adam and all will be made alive and retored through the last Adam. (1 Cor. 15) The disobedience of Adam is not greater than the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The same all who died in Adam will be made alive in Jesus. God Himself works all things according to the counsel of His own will. (Eph. 1) This faith tells me that evil will not exist forever in eternal hell because God will be all in all with all subjected to Him, including all hearts and will. The power of sin will be annulled, made of no effect. All will be subdued to Him, subjected to Him. This faith tells me that Jesus is to fill all things, (Eph. 4:10) He ascended far above the heavens and descended into the lower parts of the earth to fill all things, therefore He will fill whatever is believed to be an everlasting hell. He will be right there. This faith tells me that there is a promise of deliverance for the creation, that God who subjected the creation to futility will deliver it, (Romans 8) that all of the earth will worship Him. All flesh will see the salvation of God. God truly is the Savior of all men. No man or power can defeat the purpose of God. God bless.

[Thy Kingdom Come]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

okay, I'll be the first. I'm on the fence. I've heard and read enough on the UR to make me want to research it more thoroughly, but no one, despite my repeated requests gave me a definitive scripture that specifically says to the effect, "I will punish you in hell-fire for your sins but it will be only temporary." All I got was, "Context, man, context; mistranslation of the Greek; it's symbolic; it's figurative; etc." Without a verse that definitely establishes UR and not, "Well, this is what Jesus and Paul REALLY meant by eternal," I'm afraid I must err on the side of ET. Better to be safe than sorry.

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever.

[daddythreepointoh]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

okay, I'll be the first. I'm on the fence. I've heard and read enough on the UR to make me want to research it more thoroughly, but no one, despite my repeated requests gave me a definitive scripture that specifically says to the effect, "I will punish you in hell-fire for your sins but it will be only temporary." All I got was, "Context, man, context; mistranslation of the Greek; it's symbolic; it's figurative; etc." Without a verse that definitely establishes UR and not, "Well, this is what Jesus and Paul REALLY meant by eternal," I'm afraid I must err on the side of ET. Better to be safe than sorry.

Well I think this would depend on whether or not you are aware of the word aoneos that is in many of the verses that have been translated as eternal. If you believe, as I do and I believe to be correct, that this word does not convey eternity, but rather an age--a specific period of time, then there are tons of verses that say that the punishment is temporary.

If you believe that aoneos means eternal, then that's that.

I would love to write in more detail but dinner is done! Sorry!

[ShanaBrown]

We know that some words that have been translated as "eternal", "everlasting", "forever", "incurable", ect. do not mean this. One such word is "aionios" which means "of or relating to an age" Ages have a beginning and an end.

Words translated which do not mean eternal, everlasting, forever, ect. (KJV translation or related translations)

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ezk:16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no
more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will
"restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without
blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a
"perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies
for our sins. We now have a better covenant
established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb.
8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--Christ
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.

Thanks and God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

Notes from Birdy on the forums:

In the Greek Scriptures endlessness is never expressed in terms of eons or of that which is eonian. The Scriptures never speak of "the endless eons of eternity."

Endlessness=

Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives such as "not", "no not", "un", and "less."

For example:

"Of His kingdom there shall be no end" ouk estai telos (Luke 1:33);

"endless life" akatalutou (Heb. 7:16);

"endless genealogies" aperantois (1 Tim. 1:4)

& "nevermore" ou me eti (Rev. 18:21-23)

Greek Words That Denote Endlessness

Amarantos=

Unfading=

Not fading away. Perennial

Amarantinos=

Unfading.

Composed of amaranth. A flower so called because it never withers or fades, and when plucked off revives if moistened by water.

Akatalutos=

Endless

Not subject to destruction.

Indissoluable.

Aphthartos=

Incorruptible. Not subject to decay.

Imperishable.

Athanasia=

Immortality. Undying

Literally: deathlessness.

Aphtharsia=

Incorruption/ perpetuity.


Jesus uses none of these words when speaking of punishment. God bless.

[trustinginhim]

i'm gonna jump into the pool, but since i'm not much of a swimmer i'll stay in the shallow end and just have a few comments:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The purpose for drawing?.......To save that which is lost.......Who is that?...all of us.

We are told in Isaiah that when Gods' judgements are in the earth the world will learn righteousness

As for the ET side of things, someone, i don't remember if it was here at CD or one of the other forums i go to to read discussions, had this to say about ET

ET'rs have to be in 1 of 2 trains of thought
1 God can't save all
or
2 God WONT save all

if it is #1- mans will is too much for Gods' power
if it is #2 even though God directs our steps (as scripture says in proverbs) and is capable of directing us to the knowledge He just won't, then that to me makes Him a hard hearted and not much loving supreme being
but i do not believe #2 is the case and i certainly don't believe #1, so that leaves me to believe that God is going to fulfill His desires

God bless ya'll

[ShanaBrown]

Aionios=of or related to an age or ages (the adjective of aion)

Some argue that if punishment is not eternal then there is no eternal life.

I believe that the scriptures speak of aionios life. Jesus said that aionios life (translated as eternal life in some translations) is knowing the one and only True God and the Son whom He has sent.

John 17:3
3and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ (Young's Literal)


Aionios life is life pertaining to the ages (age lasting). Believers have this life of knowing God now. Immortality is not the same as aionios life. Believers who have aionios life, have been promised immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:
50 50And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; 51lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (aphthartoi), and we -- we shall be changed: 53for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption (aphtharsian), and this mortal to put on immortality; (athanasian) 54and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; 55where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

These are different words here. Will believers live forever and ever? Yes, when we become immortal. When Jesus speaks of "aionios life" He is speaking of life that we have during the ages.

God bless.