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Life without hope and God (being alienated in our minds) feels like life is about chance and what life serves us up is our lot.
But thanks be to God He as left nothing on the face of the earth to chance . He is in control and it's not by chance we are drawn to Him , He will do what He His able to do and His able to do what He wills and that is, He will have all men saved.
This is another typical argument full of holes both philsophically and theolologically.
John 3:17-19 says this. "For God so loved the world,( this is all the universalists see) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17)"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. 18) "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already; because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19) "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light. for their deeds were evil. There's a volitional issue here. You must make the decision. And you must do it within you life time on this earth. Afterwards, Heb. 9:27...it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment. And the following verse is talking about the
salvation of the body. The resurrection in other words.
If you refuse to believe in Jesus Christ, you are already judged, and are under that judgment until and unless you do believe in Christ. Within this lifetime!
I refuted this in my post last night entitled ' A Quick and Further Refutation of Soul Sleep', and I explained what Ecc.9:5 really means.
Everyone is welcome to read it.
Hello Mike ... Well if you want to play word games thats fine. That does not however change the facts. Whether you want to say chastising, or correction, even the believers experience Gods judgments in this world, in this life, and according to Corinthians we wilol be judged by fire for our works. Everyone will be judged by fire ... You just think that the fire you are going to be judged with is different somehow than the fire that the unbelievers are going to be judged with. In your mind i suppose you believe that the fire that will judge the works of believers is not literal, but the fire that judges the wicked and unbelievers is? Or the fire that you will be judged with to test your works is for purification, but the fiery judgments suffered by the unbelievers is not?
Or how about this?
Luke 6:37
"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:" ...
Jesus own words ... Is this true? So if a man lives without condemnation on himself or anyone else, than he will not be condemned. Especially if that man lives with forgiveness in his heart for himself and all others, then he will be forgiven ...
Those who live their lives always thinking others are condemned will themselves be condemned in the manner that they hold condedmnation in their hearts for others.
Mat 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
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If you refuse to believe in Jesus Christ, you are already judged, and are under that judgment until and unless you do believe in Christ. Within this lifetime!
And that judgment will eventually work out to the renewal and purification of all them condemned to that judgment.
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I refuted this in my post last night entitled ' A Quick and Further Refutation of Soul Sleep', and I explained what Ecc.9:5 really means.
If That verse were the only verse in the bible that refered to the fact that when we die we do not have any thoughts nor are we able to worship God etc ... Than you might have a point. However, there are many various verses throughout the old and new testaments that refer to death as sleep. Your obstinate denial of scriptural truth in order to appease your pagan doctrines does nothing to exonerate the fact that they are false.
Hello Mike ... Well if you want to play word games thats fine. That does not however change the facts. Whether you want to say chastising, or correction, even the believers experience Gods judgments in this world, in this life, and according to Corinthians we wilol be judged by fire for our works. Everyone will be judged by fire ... You just think that the fire you are going to be judged with is different somehow than the fire that the unbelievers are going to be judged with. In your mind i suppose you believe that the fire that will judge the works of believers is not literal, but the fire that judges the wicked and unbelievers is? Or the fire that you will be judged with to test your works is for purification, but the fiery judgments suffered by the unbelievers is not?
What you are failing to see, is that it is the works of the believer that are tried by fire. Not the believer himself. The works are evaluated and the believer is rewarded, or not, depending on the quality of those works.And that it is the unbeliever who is judged (condemned ) on the basis of his works. And no word games. Just what the Bible is stating.
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Or how about this?
Luke 6:37
"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:" ...
Jesus own words ... Is this true? So if a man lives without condemnation on himself or anyone else, than he will not be condemned. Especially if that man lives with forgiveness in his heart for himself and all others, then he will be forgiven ...
Those who live their lives always thinking others are condemned will themselves be condemned in the manner that they hold condedmnation in their hearts for others.
Mat 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And that judgment will eventually work out to the renewal and purification of all them condemned to that judgment.
Those verses are referring to the believer in time. They are not addressing the believer after death.
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If That verse were the only verse in the bible that refered to the fact that when we die we do not have any thoughts nor are we able to worship God etc ... Than you might have a point. However, there are many various verses throughout the old and new testaments that refer to death as sleep. Your obstinate denial of scriptural truth in order to appease your pagan doctrines does nothing to exonerate the fact that they are false.
How can you have looked at the verses I showed which clearly show the believer is in Heaven after his death, and that sleep refers only to the body and not the soul, and not have understood it at all?
I don't know if you went back into the post in which you brought up, Luke 12:46 but I answered it if you want to check.
What you are failing to see, is that it is the works of the believer that are tried by fire. Not the believer himself. The works are evaluated and the believer is rewarded, or not, depending on the quality of those works.And that it is the unbeliever who is judged (condemned ) on the basis of his works. And no word games. Just what the Bible is stating.
Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Rev 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
The judgment of fire in 1 corinthians is the same as this judgment in revelations that will judge the dead who were in hell, you just refuse to accept it.
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Those verses are referring to the believer in time. They are not addressing the believer after death.
Jesus was speaking to Jews, and had not died yet. He was speaking to unrepentant Jews not believers. Only his disciples believed and they were not even yet aware of his sacrifice for sin ...
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How can you have looked at the verses I showed which clearly show the believer is in Heaven after his death, and that sleep refers only to the body and not the soul, and not have understood it at all?
Because you haven't made your point. You argument is not compelling, except to a person who has a predisposition to believing it based on indoctrination.
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I don't know if you went back into the post in which you brought up, Luke 12:46 but I answered it if you want to check.
I didn't see your answer for that. Ill have to try and find it i guess if im able, and deal with that in the proper thread.
Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Rev 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
The judgment of fire in 1 corinthians is the same as this judgment in revelations that will judge the dead who were in hell, you just refuse to accept it.
Jesus was speaking to Jews, and had not died yet. He was speaking to unrepentant Jews not believers. Only his disciples believed and they were not even yet aware of his sacrifice for sin ...
Because you haven't made your point. You argument is not compelling, except to a person who has a predisposition to believing it based on indoctrination.
I didn't see your answer for that. Ill have to try and find it i guess if im able, and deal with that in the proper thread.
Yes, Revelation does say that Hell will deliver up the dead who wil be judged, but if you bothered to go on to read the next few verses of that chapter, it also says this:
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
You seem to have conveniently left out the last verse of the chapter!! It says plainly, right there in black and white, that during this judgement, ALL will be judged (as you said). And if your name is not found in the Book of Life, you are cast into the lake of fire.
Yes, Revelation does say that Hell will deliver up the dead who wil be judged, but if you bothered to go on to read the next few verses of that chapter, it also says this:
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
You seem to have conveniently left out the last verse of the chapter!! It says plainly, right there in black and white, that during this judgement, ALL will be judged (as you said). And if your name is not found in the Book of Life, you are cast into the lake of fire.
The point is whethe ror not we all must face the fiery judgment of God for our works. The fire of Gods wrath is not kindled against the household of faith in as much as it is with the unbelievers. But his wrath is what chastises those whom he loves. The lake of fire is a symbol which represents the baptism of fire. Jesus comes baptizing with the holy spirit, and with fire(Mat 3:11Luk 3:16). The fire of Gods wrath in the lake of fire into which the wicked are cast is for the purpose of their purification. They will be saved, yet so as by fire which is what the bible teaches in 1Cor 3:15.
Yes, Revelation does say that Hell will deliver up the dead who wil be judged, but if you bothered to go on to read the next few verses of that chapter, it also says this:
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
You seem to have conveniently left out the last verse of the chapter!! It says plainly, right there in black and white, that during this judgement, ALL will be judged (as you said). And if your name is not found in the Book of Life, you are cast into the lake of fire.
No, it says ALL will be judged by his works from the books. (not by the book of life) Then if you are not found in the Book of Life, you are cast into the lake of fire with death and hades. Death and hades are not and have never been alive! Of course they wouldn't be in the book of LIFE.
What is your view that the book of life is being used to judge anyone? Rather, where do you get the idea that it is the book of life that contains the criteria for judgment? It is clearly distinguished in vs. 12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."
Last edited by katjonjj; 09-06-2009 at 09:25 PM..
Reason: added the verse
Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Rev 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
The judgment of fire in 1 corinthians is the same as this judgment in revelations that will judge the dead who were in hell, you just refuse to accept it.
Jesus was speaking to Jews, and had not died yet. He was speaking to unrepentant Jews not believers. Only his disciples believed and they were not even yet aware of his sacrifice for sin ...
If you are referring to 1 Cor. 3:12, that is Paul addressing the Corinthians. Not Jesus, This is perhaps years after Christ ascended. Paul is addressing them as 'brethren', brothers in Christ. These are believers. Look, why don't you consult the commentaries that are available? Why don't you do some research and find out what the theologians have to say about it? This is really very basic doctrine, and you are just not getting it. There are two different judgments. One for believers and one for unbelievers.
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Because you haven't made your point. You argument is not compelling, except to a person who has a predisposition to believing it based on indoctrination.
Philippians 3:20-21 says in plain, in your face, crystal clear language that the believer after the death of his body, is in Heaven where he is eagerly awaiting the resurrection of his body. A sleeping or dead soul does not eagerly await anything. It tells you that the believers citizenship is in Heaven. We enjoy that citizenship the moment we depart the body.
Here, look at what Strongs has to say about the soul.
Strongs Number 5590
Original Word: yuce
Transliterated: Psuche
Definition: Breath; the breath of life; the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinquished from other parts of the body)
As a matter of fact, why don't you go into Strongs and look up the word
'destruction'.
Strongs Number:684
original word: ajpwvleia
transliterated: Apoleia
Definition: the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell.
Notice what it says. 'eternal misery in hell.(lake of fire)
That is Strongs own definition.
If you are referring to 1 Cor. 3:12, that is Paul addressing the Corinthians. Not Jesus, This is perhaps years after Christ ascended. Paul is addressing them as 'brethren', brothers in Christ. These are believers. Look, why don't you consult the commentaries that are available? Why don't you do some research and find out what the theologians have to say about it? This is really very basic doctrine, and you are just not getting it. There are two different judgments. One for believers and one for unbelievers.
I was referring to Luke 6:37, and Mat 7:2 ... Then i referred to the fact that thae same fiery judgment judges all men for their works. Regardless of the timing. The symbol of fire represents the same thing in both applications of gods judgment of believers and unbelievers for their works. The believers take part in the first resurrection and are not hurt of the second death/lake of fire. They have a reward which is to be co-heirs with Christ of the kingdom of heaven and to rule with him one thousand years as king priests. The wicked will not be heirs. They will suffer the loss because they have no Good works and will not take part in the first resurrection. They will at some point be subjected to Christ and his kingdom and will be purified/saved by fire. Then they will bow before him and worship him and death and hell and all the works of the devil(sin) will be destroyed at last and God will be all in all.
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Philippians 3:20-21 says in plain, in your face, crystal clear language that the believer after the death of his body, is in Heaven where he is eagerly awaiting the resurrection of his body. A sleeping or dead soul does not eagerly await anything. It tells you that the believers citizenship is in Heaven. We enjoy that citizenship the moment we depart the body.
This says absolutely nothing about going to heaven after we die. This is talking about how the believers a citizens of the kingdom of heaven. It says nothing about going there when we die, or waiting from heaven for the resurrection ... that is you inferring something that isn't there. It says we wait here on earth for Christ to come from heaven at the resurrection. As a matter of fact it says almost specifically that we will not inherit it until the resurrection of the righteous dead. At that point those that are alive and remain will be changed. Not until then will you inherit the kingdom of heaven literally.
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Here, look at what Strongs has to say about the soul.
Strongs Number 5590
Original Word: yuce
Transliterated: Psuche
Definition: Breath; the breath of life; the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinquished from other parts of the body)
As a matter of fact, why don't you go into Strongs and look up the word
'destruction'.
Strongs Number:684
original word: ajpwvleia
transliterated: Apoleia
Definition: the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell.
Notice what it says. 'eternal misery in hell.(lake of fire)
That is Strongs own definition.
The translation and definitions provided by the strongs concordance is taken directly from the KJV. They use the interprative tradition of the translators who translated the KJV which has been shown time and again in these threads to be in error in many subtle ways.
The youngs literal translation and concordance is much more reliable. You really should at least look at other materials instead of only looking into the traditional materials you have be programed with.
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It says plainly, right there in black and white, that during this judgement, ALL will be judged (as you said). And if your name is not found in the Book of Life, you are cast into the lake of fire.
