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Actually I don't remember ever saying I prefer any translation... and yes we covered this a million times!
Codex Sinaiticus: Col. 1:16 for in him were all things created that are in the heavens and that are on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or lordships, or principalities or authorities: all things have been created through him and for him,
IN him, through him and for him... this does not state that Jesus was creator...
Whatever version you use the words here should be in,through and for...
and I wonder what business it is of yours if and when I get on my knees?
It is plain that the scripture states nothing about Jesus creating.
and by - διά Him...why do you leave that out?
Selecting what you want to read and not what you choose to support your view?
I have already said Christ is the sphere in which all things were created..all these things reside in and by Him...This preposition with the genitive flexion always denotes that Christ is the immediate instrument of creation, He is the maker and the goal. See the preceding verse where we see πρωτότοκος - firstborn, This word emphasizes the pre-existence and uniqueness of Christ as well as His superiority over creation itself. This term does not indicate in any way that He was a created being, rather than His creation was created by Himself alone. Also in the context of verse 17,
the pronoun αὐτός, which I have explained in other threads does not denotes anything that is created, but that which is the creator, and is emphatically used for He-Himself, and He-and NO OTHER.
You really need to put your nose in some greek study books. It is very clear that you are lacking greatly in that area. Before you attempt to exegete the ancient language, you had better have a firm grasp on what you are proceeding into. It helps your case, and it appears here, your case is lacking a lot of foundation in this area...I have suggested some books for you in the past, have you considered them?
A BTW, that program you had referred meerkat is called Esword...very basic, but good, for those just starting out. It has some nice looking interlinear, but without knowing the true foundation of those words and why they are used in the context of the verses or discourses is the key to understanding the language, otherwise, you are just importing English into the text, which is a big NO NO, which I see time and time again from you, and many others on this board and elsewhere.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 12-16-2009 at 11:16 AM..
Reason: added thoughts
When I look at the word translated as "by"it is almost always in other passages translated "in" - it does not seem to mean the causer of something it is where it is (the position)
from e-sword
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
Where it says by I would think that would mean beside in a fixed position, and not the cause
Selecting what you want to read and not what you choose to support your view?
To me it seems that you are selecting what will support your view. I tend to think that is a human trait - (very much the I am right - so you are wrong syndrome) we are all human and all do it to some degree.
I have already said Christ is the sphere in which all things were created..all these things reside in and by Him...This preposition with the genitive flexion always denotes that Christ is the immediate instrument of creation, He is the maker and the goal. **** I do not see where it says that Jesus is the maker though --- it says in/through/for him See the preceding verse where we see πρωτότοκος - firstborn,This word emphasizes the pre-existence and
Sorry - words mean things and when born is used it always means a beginning (not pre existing)
G5088
τίκτω
tiktō
tik'-to
A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.
uniqueness of Christ as well as His superiority over creation itself. This term does not indicate in any way that He was a created being, rather than His creation was created by Himself alone. Also in the context of verse 17,
the pronoun αὐτός, which I have explained in other threads does not denotes anything that is created, but that which is the creator, and is emphatically used for He-Himself, and He-and NO OTHER.
You really need to put your nose in some greek study books. It is very clear that you are lacking greatly in that area. Before you attempt to exegete the ancient language, you had better have a firm grasp on what you are proceeding into. It helps your case, and it appears here, your case is lacking a lot of foundation in this area...I have suggested some books for you in the past, have you considered them?
A BTW, that program you had referred meerkat is called Esword...very basic, but good, for those just starting out. It has some nice looking interlinear, but without knowing the true foundation of those words and why they are used in the context of the verses or discourses is the key to understanding the language, otherwise, you are just importing English into the text, which is a big NO NO, which I see time and time again from you, and many others on this board and elsewhere.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
To me this says there is one God, who is the Father, out of -- the cause of -- then it says and we in him, in = to or into
and one Lord (separate from the one God) through who all things and we through him (therefore Christ is the channel through who all is reconciled back to God.)
I didn't leave it out... Strong's 1223 διά - Short definition = through.
Long Definition: through, on account of, because of
Should never be translated as "by" which denotes ownership of the action rather than what the word means...
Quote:
Selecting what you want to read and not what you choose to support your view?
Nope I included it..
Take a look at Matt. 1:22
Now all this has happened, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by [ὑπό] the Lord through [διά] the prophet, saying,
See the difference?
Quote:
I have already said Christ is the sphere in which all things were created..all these things reside in and by Him...This preposition with the genitive flexion always denotes that Christ is the immediate instrument of creation, He is the maker and the goal. See the preceding verse where we see πρωτότοκος - firstborn, This word emphasizes the pre-existence and uniqueness of Christ as well as His superiority over creation itself. This term does not indicate in any way that He was a created being, rather than His creation was created by Himself alone. Also in the context of verse 17,
the pronoun αὐτός, which I have explained in other threads does not denotes anything that is created, but that which is the creator, and is emphatically used for He-Himself, and He-and NO OTHER.
You really need to put your nose in some greek study books. It is very clear that you are lacking greatly in that area. Before you attempt to exegete the ancient language, you had better have a firm grasp on what you are proceeding into. It helps your case, and it appears here, your case is lacking a lot of foundation in this area...I have suggested some books for you in the past, have you considered them?
Interesting that you confuse a preposition yet you want me to study greek?
Quote:
A BTW, that program you had referred meerkat is called Esword...very basic, but good, for those just starting out. It has some nice looking interlinear, but without knowing the true foundation of those words and why they are used in the context of the verses or discourses is the key to understanding the language, otherwise, you are just importing English into the text, which is a big NO NO, which I see time and time again from you, and many others on this board and elsewhere.
Yes.. E-Sword that's right... also there is another that a poster.. I think Alabama said as well that is very useful.
I use that program to check the structure, tenses (parsing) of the words. That alone may well be dangerous in my hands...LOL But that's another matter. I do pray about it though, and ask for God's guidance.
I use that program to check the structure, tenses (parsing) of the words. That alone may well be dangerous in my hands...LOL But that's another matter. I do pray about it though, and ask for God's guidance.
Yes that's the one.. thanks!
If you are a danger to yourself and others... LOL
Just Joking... This Lady thinks you use it very well and God's guidance always brings out the truth, right?
I use that program to check the structure, tenses (parsing) of the words. That alone may well be dangerous in my hands...LOL But that's another matter. I do pray about it though, and ask for God's guidance.
Thank you Alabama!! - I missed your post referencing that software - I will look into it.
Alabama/sciotamicks/Kat --Just like to say that when it stays on topic and without condemnation, the discussions between you guys/gal is very informative - keep it comin'
I didn't leave it out... Strong's 1223 διά - Short definition = through.
Long Definition: through, on account of, because of
Strong's is good, but elementary. Take a look at Kohlenberger.
Quote:
Should never be translated as "by" which denotes ownership of the action rather than what the word means... Interesting that you confuse a preposition yet you want me to study greek?
This was my fault for not inserting αὐτός alongside it, which is what I referring to as the preposition. Kat, when those two words were used together in this case especially, it does denote ownership of all the things mentioned in the verse, so therefore the translator(s) are correct in using "by" Him. Sorry about that, my typing skills exceed my thoughts and sometimes not all of them get down on the keyboard
Quote:
Nope I included it..
Take a look at Matt. 1:22
Now all this has happened, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by [ὑπό] the Lord through [διά] the prophet, saying,
See the difference?
Actually no, because it is providing the same exegesis and translation Col 1:16 is, and there is ownership of the preposition by the noun, whether it be "Him" or the "prophetess" the syntax is correctly translated.
Strong's is good, but elementary. Take a look at Kohlenberger.
I think I will stick with strongs... it is more convenient for me. Not one concordance is going to be infallible so it is just like versions... it really doesn't matter which one you use.
Quote:
This was my fault for not inserting αὐτός alongside it, which is what I referring to as the preposition. Kat, when those two words were used together in this case especially, it does denote ownership of all the things mentioned in the verse, so therefore the translator(s) are correct in using "by" Him. Sorry about that, my typing skills exceed my thoughts and sometimes not all of them get down on the keyboard
διά αὐτός then...
Col. 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
1 Peter 1:21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Hebrews 13::15 Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.
There are more but really the one in Hebrews shows that you are wrong. It is TO GOD that praise is given.. through him. The praise goes to God not by him but through him. By him would make very little sense. The english word that most represents the greek διά is through.
You can't change the meaning of a word. It means what it means no matter what Greek scholar you talk to.
Quote:
Actually no, because it is providing the same exegesis and translation Col 1:16 is, and there is ownership of the preposition by the noun, whether it be "Him" or the "prophetess" the syntax is correctly translated.
Through does not indicate ownership. If I give a message through you... the message is mine the recipient is another and the message goes through you. You do not have any ownership in the transaction.
It is plain in scripture that Jesus was the mediator. All things were created through him BY GOD. God creates through Jesus. Jesus is the intermediate not the creator.
I think I will stick with strongs... it is more convenient for me. Not one concordance is going to be infallible so it is just like versions... it really doesn't matter which one you use.
Your choice, but that is why you will always be limited in your research.
Quote:
διά αὐτός then...
Col. 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
1 Peter 1:21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Hebrews 13::15 Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.
There are more but really the one in Hebrews shows that you are wrong. It is TO GOD that praise is given.. through him. The praise goes to God not by him but through him. By him would make very little sense. The english word that most represents the greek διά is through.
All the verses above denote ownership of the subject. Your research is very elementary. You choose the version to support your paradigm and that is fine, it shows your limitation in your studies of the Word of God. διά - means one thing and one thing only, coming from the direction of the subject, whether it be through, by, in, of...it comes from within the subject in question. If you want something just to pass through an object or person from another source, the writer would have rightfully used the proper word in doing so - like - διέρχομαι for example, but instead he is using ownership of the subject with διά. When are you ever going to learn how to divide the Word of God rightly? You split hairs where there are no hairs to split. You argue a premise that doesn't exist. You are wrong Kat, admit it...you are way out of your league when it comes to linguistics, and it shows more so the deeper you fall into the rabbit's hole as you try to prove your case that has zero foundation. You are simply wrong. The text is screaming at you, but you choose to keep the blinders on...your choice.
Take a greek class, or just simply refrain from arguing with me and sit down in your student chair and listen up. Good grief.
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I do pray about it though, and ask for God's guidance.
