Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As I figured, you show a complete inabiltiy to comprehend things that are said to you. Sheol is mentioned in the Scriptures as not just the grave but as the underworld where both believers and unbelievers went in O.T. times.
And again, you completely disregard what Jesus Himself said about the lake of fire. You are in disagreement with Christ.
Now, for those who are interested here is another link about Sheol.
Mike, Jesus never said a word about Hell. He used Gehenna and Hades. Jesus never said a word about a lake of fire. You just think He did by His discourse in Matthew 25:31-46 but that is not about the lake of fire.
And now . . . .drum roll . . . when was Jesus born? What year? When was Adam and Eve born? Why did God never tell Adam or Even about Hell? Why did God never tell anyone in the old testament about Hell?
Such an important topic of eternal torment in hell for sinners you'd think God would at least whisper it in the O.T.
Sheol is not an underworld. It is the grave. Saint and sinner alike go to the grave. The only underworld Sheol might be is when dead people are entombed under the ground.
Ever seen a crackhead? they are in "Hell"
Ever seen a Meth addict? the are in "Hell"
Ever seen a blasphemer to GOD? they are in "Hell"
Hell is mentioned in the Bible. the Lake of Fire is NOT a quiet death imo. IMO it's the center of the earth. I think GOD is going to the dump the "trash" into the center of the earth and seal them there. and YES, Hell is mentioned in the Bible in Luke:
Luke 16:22-28
22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)
What we call in the English, hell ,is called in the Greek, Hades and in the Hebrew of the Old testament times, is called Sheol. There are numerous mentions of it in the Old Testament, and it refers to the underworld, not just the grave.
As for what God said to Cain or anyone else, the scriptures do not record everything that God said to them. For you to say what God did or did ot say is arrogant and presumptious. And Noah evangelized for the entire 120 years that it took to build the ark.
And lest you forget, It was Jesus Christ Himself who spoke of the lake of fire. Or do you simply prefer to ignore the words of God incarnate?
Anyone who wishes to can simply google 'sheol' and get the O.T passages which speak of it, and you, if you are honest with yourself will see that it is not talking about just the grave, but the underworld. The Sheol of the O.T is the same Hades of the N.T. and is described in Luke 16. It was a place in which before Christ went to the Cross, both believers in the compartment of Hades/Sheol called Paradise or Abrahams Bosom, and a place for the unbeliever in the compartment called Torments both went. Those who say that Luke 16 is just a parable and isn't saying what it seems to be saying are convenently forgetting that Hades/Sheol is mentioned many times in the O.T. as Sheol. It is mentioned in Revelation 20:14 as itself being thrown into the lake of fire. Those who are in Hades in the compartment of Torments, are resurrected and thrown into the lake of fire at the command of Jesus Christ Himself. And the word of God says they are tormented forever and ever. Revelation 20:10.
And again, it was Jesus Himself who spoke of the lake of fire.
This will make no difference at all to the universalists. But for those to whom it does make sense, there it is.
Good post.
- but Noah evangelized with Methusaleh for 120 years, and built the ark in five years. Book of Jasher 5
Quote:
The Book of the Upright[Jasher], chapter 5
And it was in the eighty-fourth year of the life of Noah, that Enoch/Enowsh [see vs 2 for correct sp] the son of Seth died, he was nine hundred and five years old at his death. [Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.]
And in the one hundred and seventy ninth year of the life of Noah, Cainan the son of Enosh died, and all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years, and he died.
And in the two hundred and thirty fourth year of the life of Noah, Mahlallel the son of Cainan died, and the days of Mahlallel were eight hundred and ninety-five years, and he died.
And Jared the son of Mahlallel died in those days, in the three hundred and thirty-sixth year of the life of Noah; and all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years, and he died.
And all who followed the Lord died in those days, before they saw the evil which God declared to do upon earth.
And after the lapse of many years, in the four hundred and eightieth year of the life of Noah, when all those men, who followed the Lord had died away from amongst the sons of men, and only Methuselah was then left, God said unto Noah and Methuselah, saying,
Speak ye, and proclaim to the sons of men, saying, Thus saith the Lord, return from your evil ways and forsake your works, and the Lord will repent of the evil that he declared to do to you, so that it shall not come to pass.
For thus saith the Lord, Behold I give you a period of one hundred and twenty years; if you will turn to me and forsake your evil ways, then will I also turn away from the evil which I told you, and it shall not exist, saith the Lord.
And Noah and Methuselah spoke all the words of the Lord to the sons of men, day after day, constantly speaking to them.
But the sons of men would not hearken to them, nor incline their ears to their words, and they were stiffnecked.
And the Lord granted them a period of one hundred and twenty years, saying, If they will return, then will God repent of the evil, so as not to destroy the earth.
Noah the son of Lamech refrained from taking a wife in those days, to beget children, for he said, Surely now God will destroy the earth, wherefore then shall I beget children?
And Noah was a just man, he was perfect in his generation, and the Lord chose him to raise up seed from his seed upon the face of the earth.
And the Lord said unto Noah, Take unto thee a wife, and beget children, for I have seen thee righteous before me in this generation.
And thou shalt raise up seed, and thy children with thee, in the midst of the earth; and Noah went and took a wife, and he chose Naamah the daughter of Enoch, and she was five hundred and eighty years old.
And Noah was four hundred and ninety-eight years old, when he took Naamah for a wife.
And Naamah conceived and bare a son, and he called his name Japheth, saying, God has enlarged me in the earth; and she conceived again and bare a son, and he called his name Shem, saying, God has made me a remnant, to raise up seed in the midst of the earth.
And Noah was five hundred and two years old when Naamah bare Shem, and the boys grew up and went in the ways of the Lord, in all that Methuselah and Noah their father taught them.
And Lamech the father of Noah, died in those days; yet verily he did not go with all his heart in the ways of his father, and he died in the hundred and ninety-fifth year of the life of Noah.
And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred and seventy years, and he died.
And all the sons of men who knew the Lord, died in that year before the Lord brought evil upon them; for the Lord willed them to die, so as not to behold the evil that God would bring upon their brothers and relatives, as he had so declared to do.
In that time, the Lord said to Noah and Methuselah, Stand forth and proclaim to the sons of men all the words that I spoke to you in those days, peradventure they may turn from their evil ways, and I will then repent of the evil and will not bring it.
And Noah and Methuselah stood forth, and said in the ears of the sons of men, all that God had spoken concerning them.
But the sons of men would not hearken, neither would they incline their ears to all their declarations.
And it was after this that the Lord said to Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me, on account of their evil deeds, and behold I will destroy the earth.
And do thou take unto thee gopher wood, and go to a certain place and make a large ark, and place it in that spot.
And thus shalt thou make it; three hundred cubits its length, fifty cubits broad and thirty cubits high.
And thou shalt make unto thee a door, open at its side, and to a cubit thou shalt finish above, and cover it within and without with pitch.
And behold I will bring the flood of waters upon the earth, and all flesh be destroyed, from under the heavens all that is upon earth shall perish.
And thou and thy household shall go and gather two couple of all living things, male and female, and shall bring them to the ark, to raise up seed from them upon earth.
And gather unto thee all food that is eaten by all the animals, that there may be food for thee and for them.
And thou shalt choose for thy sons three maidens, from the daughters of men, and they shall be wives to thy sons.
And Noah rose up, and he made the ark, in the place where God had commanded him, and Noah did as God had ordered him.
In his five hundred and ninety-fifth year Noah commenced to make the ark, and he made the ark in five years, as the Lord had commanded.
Then Noah took the three daughters of Eliakim, son of Methuselah, for wives for his sons, as the Lord had commanded Noah.
And it was at that time Methuselah the son of Enoch died, nine hundred and sixty years old was he, at his death.
Ever seen a crackhead? they are in "Hell"
Ever seen a Meth addict? the are in "Hell"
Ever seen a blasphemer to GOD? they are in "Hell"
Hell is mentioned in the Bible. the Lake of Fire is NOT a quiet death imo. IMO it's the center of the earth. I think GOD is going to the dump the "trash" into the center of the earth and seal them there. and YES, Hell is mentioned in the Bible in Luke:
Luke 16:22-28
22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)
That passage is talking about the soul condition in the spirit world. a person in darkness cannot go to another part of heaven until all payments have been met. That passage indicates that there are different "spheres" in the spirit world and each "sphere" is bassed on a persons soul condition.
Natural Love people and Divine Love people reside in different "heavens" and evill resides in a different "heaven" than a person who did no wrong.
That passage is telling you that in order to see God, you must uplift your own soul. If you don't, you will be in one of the "heavens" that has less light that one who works on their soul. That passage also indicates that all sin will be eradicated if the person should so desire.
Your ignorance of true biblical history is showing.
Duh . . . i's just a dumb ole cout.
Quote:
Adam was destined for redemption, that is why he was clothed to cover his shame of ruin, and cast out of the Garden of Eden, so that his body would not live forever in that unclean state, and so, make him eligible for regeneration by the Atonement which was promised from the beginning.
And yet not one word from God about Hell! How dumb of God not to spill the beans at such a tragic point in human history!
Quote:
Abel's soul descended to Sheol and cried out to YHWH from there for avenging of his blood.
YHWH said to Cain: the voice of your brother's blood/soul/life is calling out to me from the earth, which opened her mouth/hole to receive your brother's blood/soul/life from your hand.
Umm, scripture please? Book, chapter and verse for the above in the Old Testament.
And yet not one word about Hell from God at such a tragic point in human history . . . the first murder!
Quote:
Sheol is from the root etymon for "hollow".
No duh! Do you think that is why they call it the tomb or grave where they would hollow out a place and roll a stone door in front?
Quote:
And Jesus saw Lazarus in Abraham's care [in Luke 16], before His own descent and resurrection, when He led all the righteous souls from there to Zion above, to reside with Him, and He saw Lazarus in the "hollow made for the righteous", where there were "bright springs of water", separated from the hollow where the rich man went, and was in torments in -just as ENoch revealed them to us, by his own revelations he was given to write of when he was taken on the tour of creation.
Huhuh, springs of water in a tomb. Good one. How about a river flowing through the rich mans tomb with fire as well? LOL! What next? I think you have been inbibing too many books outside the bible.
Quote:
the same with the Lake of Fire: Enoch saw it and described it for all his descendants -and we are all descended from Enoch and his revelations of Sheol and the Lake of Fire are for all the world, for all time.
The OT and NT never relay the foundation Enoch laid, but corroborate it.
How come God never once told any of humanity about a place called Hell where they would go to torture for all eternity in hell fire in the Old Testament? That's thousands of years?
I registered once in a Jewish forum, concerning Hitler, I got the answer "Jews don't believe in hell, we believe only the just will be ressurected" (annihilationism seems to prevail among Jews)
Jesus is a Jew, and Daniel is a Jew, and so on and so forth, and John is a Jew. If you want to get doctrine from Christ rejecting Jews, then you reject the doctrine of Christ, Himself.
Enoch told us the doctrine of Sheol below earth and the doctrine of the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels, in which all will have their own part who are cast aways, in that day of the final judgment of the unrighteous.
Quote:
[Chapter 108]
1 Another book which Enoch wrote for his son Methuselah and for those who will come after him, 2 and keep the law in the last days. Ye who have done good shall wait for those days till an end is made of those who work evil; and an end of the might of the transgressors.
And wait ye indeed till sin has passed away, for their names shall be blotted out of the book of life and out of the holy books, and their seed shall be destroyed for ever, and their spirits shall be slain, and they shall cry and make lamentation in a place that is a chaotic wilderness, and in the fire shall they burn; for there is no earth there. And I saw there something like an invisible cloud; for by reason of its depth I could not look over, and I saw a flame of fire blazing brightly, and things like shining 5 mountains circling and sweeping to and fro. And I asked one of the holy angels who was with me and said unto him: ' What is this shining thing? for it is not a heaven but only the flame of a blazing 6 fire, and the voice of weeping and crying and lamentation and strong pain.' And he said unto me: '
This place which thou seest-here are cast the spirits of sinners and blasphemers, and of those who work wickedness, and of those who pervert everything that the Lord hath spoken through the mouth 7 of the prophets-(even) the things that shall be.
For some of them are written and inscribed above in the heaven, in order that the angels may read them and know that which shall befall the sinners, and the spirits of the humble, and of those who have afflicted their bodies, and been recompensed 8 by God; and of those who have been put to shame by wicked men: Who love God and loved neither gold nor silver nor any of the good things which are in the world, but gave over their bodies to torture. Who, since they came into being, longed not after earthly food, but regarded everything as a passing breath, and lived accordingly, and the Lord tried them much, and their spirits were 10 found pure so that they should bless His name. And all the blessings destined for them I have recounted in the books. And he hath assigned them their recompense, because they have been found to be such as loved heaven more than their life in the world, and though they were trodden under foot of wicked men, and experienced abuse and reviling from them and were put to shame, 11 yet they blessed Me.
And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed 12 with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who 13 have loved My holy name, and I will seat each on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number; for righteousness is the judgement of God; for to the faithful 14 He will give faithfulness in the habitation of upright paths.
And they shall see those who were , 15 born in darkness led into darkness, while the righteous shall be resplendent. And the sinners shall cry aloud and see them resplendent, and they indeed will go where days and seasons are prescribed for them.'
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Jude, the womb brother of Jesus, also read Enoch and used it in His preaching -like Jesus did;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Quote:
1 Enoch Chapter 10 And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves 12 with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is 13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and 14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. ...
1 Enoch chapter 46:
4 And this Son of Man whom thou hast seen
Shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats,
[And the strong from their thrones]
And shall loosen the reins of the strong,
And break the teeth of the sinners. 5 [And he shall put down the kings from their thrones and kingdoms]
Because they do not extol and praise Him,
Nor humbly acknowledge whence the kingdom was bestowed upon them.
6 And he shall put down the countenance of the strong,
And shall fill them with shame. And darkness shall be their dwelling,
And worms shall be their bed,
And they shall have no hope of rising from their beds,
Because they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits.
Quote:
[Chapter 63]
1 In those days shall the mighty and the kings who possess the earth implore (Him) to grant them a little respite from His angels of punishment to whom they were delivered, that they might fall 2 down and worship before the Lord of Spirits, and confess their sins before Him. And they shall bless and glorify the Lord of Spirits, and say:
' Blessed is the Lord of Spirits and the Lord of kings,
And the Lord of the mighty and the Lord of the rich,
And the Lord of glory and the Lord of wisdom,
3 And splendid in every secret thing is Thy power from generation to generation,
And Thy glory for ever and ever:
Deep are all Thy secrets and innumerable,
And Thy righteousness is beyond reckoning.
4 We have now learnt that we should glorify
And bless the Lord of kings and Him who is king over all kings.'
5 And they shall say:
' Would that we had rest to glorify and give thanks
And confess our faith before His glory !
6 And now we long for a little rest but find it not:
We follow hard upon and obtain (it) not:
And light has vanished from before us,
And darkness is our dwelling-place for ever and ever:
7 For we have not believed before Him
Nor glorified the name of the Lord of Spirits, [nor glorified our Lord]
But our hope was in the sceptre of our kingdom,
And in our glory.
8 And in the day of our suffering and tribulation He saves us not,
And we find no respite for confession
That our Lord is true in all His works, and in His judgements and His justice,
And His judgements have no respect of persons.
And we pass away from before His face on account of our works,
And all our sins are reckoned up in righteousness.'
10 Now they shall say unto themselves: ' Our souls are full of unrighteous gain, but it does not prevent us from descending from the midst thereof into the burden of Sheol.'
11 And after that their faces shall be filled with darkness
And shame before that Son of Man,
And they shall be driven from his presence, And the sword shall abide before his face in their midst.
12 Thus spake the Lord of Spirits: ' This is the ordinance and judgement with respect to the mighty and the kings and the exalted and those who possess the earth before the Lord of Spirits.'
Quote:
chapter 90
20 And I saw till a throne was erected in the pleasant land, and the Lord of the sheep sat Himself thereon, and the other took the sealed books and opened those books before the Lord of the sheep. 21 And the Lord called those men the seven first white ones, and commanded that they should bring before Him, beginning with the first star which led the way, all the stars whose privy members 22 were like those of horses, and they brought them all before Him. And He said to that man who wrote before Him, being one of those seven white ones, and said unto him: ' Take those seventy shepherds to whom I delivered the sheep, and who taking them on their own authority slew more 23 than I commanded them.' And behold they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. 24 And the judgement was held first over the stars, and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, and full 25 of pillars of fire. And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast 26 into that fiery abyss.
Note that Jesus says that those who are cast into the lake of fire are cast in, soul in body, but no spirit. They never get a regenerated spirit, and the Adam spirit is cut off, for multiplying, in the eighth day of creation, which is the New Beginning, and the sign of that cutting off of the spirit of Adam for multiplying is circumcision on the eighth day, give to the namesake nation to rehearse as His oracle of that cutting off of the Adam spirit in the eighth day of creation.
But the soul never passes away, and the body of each unredeemed human being soul is resurrected for the soul to indwell forever, in which body they will be "undying worms" forever, as cast aways in the Abyss =the Lake of Fire, where all who are blotted out of the book of Life have their own part, forever.
That passage is talking about the soul condition in the spirit world. a person in darkness cannot go to another part of heaven until all payments have been met. That passage indicates that there are different "spheres" in the spirit world and each "sphere" is bassed on a persons soul condition.
Natural Love people and Divine Love people reside in different "heavens" and evill resides in a different "heaven" than a person who did no wrong.
That passage is telling you that in order to see God, you must uplift your own soul. If you don't, you will be in one of the "heavens" that has less light that one who works on their soul. That passage also indicates that all sin will be eradicated if the person should so desire.
If you are speaking of Purgatory,There's no such thing. that's a Catholic teaching. and it's inaccurate.
If you are speaking of Purgatory,There's no such thing. that's a Catholic teaching. and it's inaccurate.
No, I don't believe in "purgatory". Hell is only a condition of the soul, nothing more. It becomes an actual place when the darkened soul gets to the spirit world. In no other way can "hell" exist for an individual. once there, the soul will have to pay to the last farthing before it can progress out of it's own darkness.
Jesus is a Jew, and Daniel is a Jew, and so on and so forth, and John is a Jew. If you want to get doctrine from Christ rejecting Jews, then you reject the doctrine of Christ, Himself.
Enoch told us the doctrine of Sheol below earth and the doctrine of the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels, in which all will have their own part who are cast aways, in that day of the final judgment of the unrighteous. Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Jude, the womb brother of Jesus, also read Enoch and used it in His preaching -like Jesus did;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Note that Jesus says that those who are cast into the lake of fire are cast in, soul in body, but no spirit. They never get a regenerated spirit, and the Adam spirit is cut off, for multiplying, in the eighth day of creation, which is the New Beginning, and the sign of that cutting off of the spirit of Adam for multiplying is circumcision on the eighth day, give to the namesake nation to rehearse as His oracle of that cutting off of the Adam spirit in the eighth day of creation. But the soul never passes away, and the body of each unredeemed human being soul is resurrected for the soul to indwell forever, in which body they will be "undying worms" forever, as cast aways in the Abyss =the Lake of Fire, where all who are blotted out of the book of Life have their own part, forever.
yeshuasavedme, we are dealing only with the Old Testament. Please look again at the beginning of this whole thread.
God never told anyone of the Old Testament about Hell.
You can quote non-canonical books till you are blue in the face but they don't count in my book.
Not once did God tell Adam or Eve that if they sinned they'd go to hell for ever.
God never told Cain he was going to hell for ever for murder.
God never told any of the millions or billions of earth's inhabitants before the flood that they'd go to a Hell of fire eternal if they didn't straighten up.
God never told the Ninevites they were going to hell if they didn't straighten up.
God never once in all the Law of Moses warned the Jews that if they broke His law they were going to go to hell fire for eternity. Look in all the curses of the law and try to find it.
Why all the secrecy if it is really mankind's fate? Don't you think God owed it to those billions of people to at least let the cat out of the bag about such a horrendous fate if it was true?
well?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
