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Finite punishment (no matter how harsh it appears to us) can always be used for a greater good by an infinite being (God), and thus can always be a loving act (even for the person the punishment is being inflicted upon), if we can only see it from God's infinite perspective (which admittedly is difficult, but we can imagine there is such a greater good, even if we don't see it).
Inifinite punishment can never be loving, and it can never produce a greater good for the individual being infinitely punished.
I know your point. The problem I have is you have no authority for this. You build a god on a reasoned construct. Reason can assemble anything-men have beards, Socrates has a beard, therefore Socrates is a man, or men have beards, that billy goat has a beard, therefore that billy goat is a man. Any god can be manufactured in this way. It is good for you and I am happy your god functions this way. The problem is what does the "real" one think? To know what the real god thinks one as to have access to it, to start the reasoned process or you just start it on your own assumptions-that is fine as that is what most of this stuff is anyway. If you use bible on this you will immediately run into contradiction, as that is why they have (much smarter people than you or I) been arguing this for centuries. What is your authority for what god thinks-not your authority for your reasoning process, I know what that is-yourself, but "yourself" carries little weight in the world?
I know your point. The problem I have is you have no authority for this. You build a god on a reasoned construct. Reason can assemble anything-men have beards, Socrates has a beard, therefore Socrates is a man, or men have beards, that billy goat has a beard, therefore that billy goat is a man. Any god can be manufactured in this way. It is good for you and I am happy your god functions this way. The problem is what does the "real" one think? To know what the real god thinks one as to have access to it, to start the reasoned process or you just start it on your own assumptions-that is fine as that is what most of this stuff is anyway. If you use bible on this you will immediately run into contradiction, as that is why they have (much smarter people than you or I) been arguing this for centuries. What is your authority for what god thinks-not your authority for your reasoning process, I know what that is-yourself, but "yourself" carries little weight in the world?
Actually with your statements above I wonder if you know what reasoning and logic really is.
Men have beards, goats have a beard, therefore goats are men?!?!? Are you kidding me? Is that how you "reason"? I hope not.
Everything I write in this forum is my opinion. Just as everything you write here is your opinion. But I try to actually use reason to examine the scriptures, unlike the nonsense argument you came up with above.
My point still stands, logically it cannot be refuted. Much greater good can come for an individual who is punished, but no greater good can come for an individual who is eternally punished.
It was just an example of how reason is not infallible. My wife thinks I don't reason at all. Thanks for the opinion statement-I like honesty
Isa 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Certainly our human reasoning can be fallible ... But God doesnt want men to simply believe whatever they are told by other men and their traditions of religious fear and bondage. That is what Christ came for, to release us from the bondage of sin and death which abound due to the law that mankind demanded from God, thinking that they could earn his love and his mercy. God gave man the law not so that man could accomplish their own salvation but to prove to man they could not accomplish it. God expects us to use the mind he has given us to understand this, and to understand his unconditional love for us, which we cannot earn or deserve.
Throughout the millennia since creation men have sought to control other men through using the law to manipulate and control them through fear and injustice. Liars and thieves have always used threats of spiritual and physical violence and extortion to swindle the masses and trample on their spirit in order to empower themselves through government and religion. Tyrants and hypocritical religious rulers pretending to abide in the very laws they themselves do not and cannot keep. Putting great burdens on the backs of the people, not willing themselves to lift a finger in an effort to help or do what they demand of others.
When Christ was with us it was these very men that he stood against, the same men who killed him. And Christ even prayed that God would forgive them. Yet these pharisees of every culture have twisted the words of God and of his Christ in order to keep the laity in bondage to themselves, not wanting man to know the liberty that was won for all mankind in christ regardless of creed or culture. These pharisees now control the church and have done so for more than 1500 years now, and for this reason the gospel of Christ has become an abomination on the lips of those that do not believe. The unrighteous rulers of the faith have caused the heathen to blaspheme the name of God. The time is coming when they will get their due reward. And the first shall be last in the kingdom of heaven. Then all those who judge others will themselves come under the condemnation of their own words and the words which Christ spoke which they have twisted.
In that day, justice will be done, and the mercy and grace of God will be known finally among all the people of the world. When those who have used their power to control others and keep them in bondage have been abased and their shame is unveiled at alst, then they will be able to enter into the very Kingdom they refused all others while they were in the position of power they won for themselves through their lies and scandals. Then Finally they will know the truth and serve God themselves and though they were ashamed they will rejoice in the newness of life that will be the gift of God to all, and God will be all in all ever more ...
Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-10-2010 at 11:20 PM..
If god made all this stuff when there was nothing, then he/she/it owns it. If that god wants to place some of it in eternal damnation, what is the gripe? Those put in eternal damnation, if it will be, are not cut lose from the god as if they are on their own, but they will be taken care of by the god and work out their reason for being brought out of the nothingness just as those who don't end up there-all have a task. That is the concept-it rules everything and therefore it takes care of it all, even the "darkest" corners, because, as it indicates somewhere (for those who still see the need for a bible), without him (I am sure it means her and it as well) this all goes away, back into nothingness. You can pick and choose bible all you want, but you might want to lump it all together and find all the junk in it that you don't like and live with it or write another one like Jefferson did, because all that you do, think, and say, will have no impact on the truth as god wills it; if he is.
You said ...
Quote:
If god made all this stuff when there was nothing, then he/she/it owns it. If that god wants to place some of it in eternal damnation, what is the gripe?
People make babies all the time, if they wanted to keep them in the basement and torture them all their lives, why would anyone else gripe about it? Or if they wanted to burn them alive in a sacrifice them to their god, why would God care, why would he consider it a sin, especially if he does it to his own Offspring? Nay, especially If god doesn't just burn his offspring until they die, but for ever and ever?
Jer 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
I am not unfamiliar with bible verses and do not need to be preached to and use archaic words like nay as if there is some commanding power in old words. I am not unfamiliar with reason and am not in need of some trumped up singular rational path to be convinced of one's point (I am convinced you all believe your point); your point is lame. Reason can go any direction, especially from one's already desired fact-you may be right but you may be wrong, but as with me, your teaching is as the scribes and Pharisees-without power and authority, who would believe you? This is one reason christians are so lame and one is tempted to be an atheist as on rare occasions there is fresh air in that thought structure. Any god that would give paradise to a pedophile who murders a child is no god but a mush bag. We end up with a paradise full of greasy butchers that should be dispatched to hell with a 45 to the temple (see, one can easily use an example to exclude someone, and some people want everyone saved but our ol' friends Hitler and Stalin, even their works are quantitatively to great, so much for grace in that case). You can rationalize all you want and say we are all the same sinners, as a qualification, and god is love, so love will prevent god from some action (god is love but love is not god), yeah we all know that, and one can come up with all kinds of reasons for anything to justify one's beliefs-everyone is in this mode or muddle. You can throw bible at me, but it can be thrown back-people overall know nothing, they only assume, people want a god that thinks like them (even atheists wants a god that isn't there just like they think it isn't there). One's sinner relation or loved one can die and one can pine for their eternal happiness, or dog, or toy, or whatever, too bad-they go to the fire outside of the city gates if that is where the god, in his freedom-in his freedom (even Jesus needed to learn of god's freedom and he was god), determines they go. If the god is bound, it is not by some human moral or ethic structure that a human thinks is transcendent to the god, (god's own determination is all that binds it), and, therefore, binds the god-we are not his councilors as it says somewhere and what is required of us is not exactly required of the god; or how one interprets one's little understanding of one's little human love. God only binds himself and his binding may not be permanent even within our history. Vessels made fit for destruction are vessels made for just that-grind them in life and then give them bliss? No wonder one is tempted to give up this rigmarole-life is not a game but a serious contradiction with eternal consequences. The christian desire to ease this burden and get some or all over the hump, free grace as its called, is an error as a non rational singular sided thought, reason is dialectical and the contradiction has to be made complete-salvation is by grace but also by works-these figure into it heavily-that is the contradiction, the bible speaks of both and it speaks of both with eternal consequences-one must take em both even without the elimination of either (the doctrine of the atonement has to work it out for faith); the bible makes it clear that one still will pay for one's actions. One does not tell god what he wants to do with whatever it is he wants to do it with-I could throw scripture here as well, but no one pays attention to bible except as a point justifier-all men are lairs and self seekers for themselves. The god is a concept (even if there is a real one-one still has a mind and that is where the thought of god is), a god that thinks like you is the concept of you, you have something, but your concept is not the god concept, as the concept must be greater than you to be a god concept. God does save them all-I have said this before, somewhere on this forum thing, the same bible says so; but note the little caveat: "especially the church"; the distinction is made with two groups-that is the human historical action of god, to cleave the race into two groups, and it is called election-election of both, not a rejection of one, but an election of both, but an election of a distinct pair. But it saves them for glory and for glory-just distinction in form relative to each group's destiny, but one glory. You are not saved because you are you, or that humans are so lovely, but saved because of god's glory, and one doesn't go to one place or the other for one's own enjoyment or pain-all that is secondary-one goes to these places for god's glory and that glory ain't to satisfy ones concept of some little human concept of glory, but to satisfy the glory that god has of and for himself. But-as with all men, continue to think that god is like oneself as that is the standard operating procedure.
I am not unfamiliar with bible verses and do not need to be preached to and use archaic words like nay as if there is some commanding power in old words. I am not unfamiliar with reason and am not in need of some trumped up singular rational path to be convinced of one's point (I am convinced you all believe your point); your point is lame. Reason can go any direction, especially from one's already desired fact-you may be right but you may be wrong, but as with me, your teaching is as the scribes and Pharisees-without power and authority, who would believe you? This is one reason christians are so lame and one is tempted to be an atheist as on rare occasions there is fresh air in that thought structure. Any god that would give paradise to a pedophile who murders a child is no god but a mush bag. We end up with a paradise full of greasy butchers that should be dispatched to hell with a 45 to the temple (see, one can easily use an example to exclude someone, and some people want everyone saved but our ol' friends Hitler and Stalin, even their works are quantitatively to great, so much for grace in that case). You can rationalize all you want and say we are all the same sinners, as a qualification, and god is love, so love will prevent god from some action (god is love but love is not god), yeah we all know that, and one can come up with all kinds of reasons for anything to justify one's beliefs-everyone is in this mode or muddle. You can throw bible at me, but it can be thrown back-people overall know nothing, they only assume, people want a god that thinks like them (even atheists wants a god that isn't there just like they think it isn't there). One's sinner relation or loved one can die and one can pine for their eternal happiness, or dog, or toy, or whatever, too bad-they go to the fire outside of the city gates if that is where the god, in his freedom-in his freedom (even Jesus needed to learn of god's freedom and he was god), determines they go. If the god is bound, it is not by some human moral or ethic structure that a human thinks is transcendent to the god, (god's own determination is all that binds it), and, therefore, binds the god-we are not his councilors as it says somewhere and what is required of us is not exactly required of the god; or how one interprets one's little understanding of one's little human love. God only binds himself and his binding may not be permanent even within our history. Vessels made fit for destruction are vessels made for just that-grind them in life and then give them bliss? No wonder one is tempted to give up this rigmarole-life is not a game but a serious contradiction with eternal consequences. The christian desire to ease this burden and get some or all over the hump, free grace as its called, is an error as a non rational singular sided thought, reason is dialectical and the contradiction has to be made complete-salvation is by grace but also by works-these figure into it heavily-that is the contradiction, the bible speaks of both and it speaks of both with eternal consequences-one must take em both even without the elimination of either (the doctrine of the atonement has to work it out for faith); the bible makes it clear that one still will pay for one's actions. One does not tell god what he wants to do with whatever it is he wants to do it with-I could throw scripture here as well, but no one pays attention to bible except as a point justifier-all men are lairs and self seekers for themselves. The god is a concept (even if there is a real one-one still has a mind and that is where the thought of god is), a god that thinks like you is the concept of you, you have something, but your concept is not the god concept, as the concept must be greater than you to be a god concept. God does save them all-I have said this before, somewhere on this forum thing, the same bible says so; but note the little caveat: "especially the church"; the distinction is made with two groups-that is the human historical action of god, to cleave the race into two groups, and it is called election-election of both, not a rejection of one, but an election of both, but an election of a distinct pair. But it saves them for glory and for glory-just distinction in form relative to each group's destiny, but one glory. You are not saved because you are you, or that humans are so lovely, but saved because of god's glory, and one doesn't go to one place or the other for one's own enjoyment or pain-all that is secondary-one goes to these places for god's glory and that glory ain't to satisfy ones concept of some little human concept of glory, but to satisfy the glory that god has of and for himself. But-as with all men, continue to think that god is like oneself as that is the standard operating procedure.
First of all, excuse my use of poetic license. Had i realized you were so disdainful of all things Christian to begin with, i never would have ventured to try and explain what i believe to you in the first place. Never mind, and good luck with you unbelief.
I guess I shouldn't be so rude, after all I have this forum thing under my "friends" in my email (haha). Typing things leaves out the humor, rudeness, anger etc. One doesn't get that part in a complete way when not face to face and one can easily read stuff in to it all. I am not disdainful of christian things, probably not disdainful of very much at all, but all is enigmatic,and, therefore, very interesting-thought has to be push to the limit or it doesn't get very far. I commented on your ideas because these interested me. The more I can assault them, the more I can find the holes in them and this helps with my thought, which has many holes. Surely what you believe is of no concern to me as related to your person-I don't even know you and your problems are just that, but the ideas you write, and since you write them, these are fair game to take apart, otherwise we should keep all ideas to ourselves. I post on here for myself, and the responses I write are for me-I find what I write to be the most interesting on the forum and surprise myself with what I come up with. It is like seeing one's thoughts coming back to one through one's eyes. Your stuff is just an occasion for my own interests. It is all nothing personal.
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