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Let me explain why I think the doctrine of immortal soul supports and is in fact required to believe in eternal torment.
The doctrine of immortal soul essentially says the soul cannot be destroyed, and that we must always have a consciousness somewhere. So given this, if you believe that someone can reject God forever, then you have the problem of where do all these wayward souls go, since they cannot be destroyed? The solution is into the lake of fire - ie. eternal torment. Some people soften this to say it is simply eternal "separation", which if you really think about it would still be eternal torment. Furthermore this immortal soul doctrine leads to silly ideas where the unsaved are tormented in hell/hades before they are judged, then are resurrected with new bodies, judged at the GWT, and then throne into the lake of fire to experience pain (with their new bodies) forever. It is very twisted, basically because they believe the soul cannot be "gotten rid of".
Now consider if the soul is NOT immortal, but actually dependent on God for life. God has the power to KILL the soul, and God has the power to make the soul ALIVE.
Given this scenario, why would God need to keep all these wayward souls around so He can punish them forever in the lake of fire? Is this merciful and just? No of course not. There is simply no good reason for God to allow people to be tormented forever if the soul is not immortal. Now some people do believe God derives glory from people being tormented forever (a sick belief of some hyper/Calvinists), but most give up on eternal torment at this point and accept annihilation as a possibility.
But of course God is even more powerful than this in that He can not only destroy and resurrect souls, He can also change souls. He can cause a transformation in one's perspective such that a person will not want to reject God anymore! This is the belief of UR (at least how I see it).
If you research the history of the doctrine of immortal soul, you will see that it too also came from the pagans, along with their belief in eternal torment.
Ahhhh....uh-huh.....now I see what you mean. Thanks for explaining that. But I don't (just me personally in my own view of scripture) think that having an immortal soul is a bad thing....it just means we can go directly to be with the Lord. I don't necessarily think that those who were not in Christ get to go anywhere but to the grave. Like a perk, so to speak, for knowing Christ in this lifetime, you get to go be with the Lord as soon as you die. Just my take on it.
This is a confusing subject and once we feel we go to be with the Lord immediately upon death, we certainly don't want to think that might be delayed. And perhaps it is not, who alive today can know for sure?
Like Katzpur, I believe the soul is what results from the spirit entering the body.....THEN man became a living soul. However, I don not believe we are a dichotomy in that we have a soul AND a spirit, both controlled by us. The spirit comes from God and returns to God, it has always been said this in the Old Testament and yet the scriptures said that we slept in the grave, with no knowledge of anything. The spirit is part of God, which can lead us to truth if we heed it, etc. But it is not under OUR control, we only have control of our soul which is what controls our body, thinks, reasons, etc.
Why did Paul refer to believers being ASLEEP in Christ? This does NOT denote consciousness to me. When He says we have eternal life, to me that says that believers will enjoy the Tabernacles age...be resurrected BEFORE those who did not believe. It is that pesky aion word again. I have read a great article explaining the verses that seemingly say we go to be with Christ immediately upon death and I thought they were well done. I have had to purge my computer, unfortunatley, and iI am not sure I can find that article again. It explained very convincingly the verse where Paul seems to say he could live or go to be with Christ.....again it seems to be a bit of a translation problem and it was something like he was 'straitened betwixt two choices' and the way it went it didn't prove that he thought he would immediately be with Christ upon his death. I will see if I can find the article in the next few days.
Though God is a spirit, I'm not sure if we were meant to be bodiless spirits. I believe we will enjoy BOTH realms and certainly our bodies will be able to enjoy both realms but I don't think this physical universe was ever meant to be just a temporary thing. Just my two cents worth.
Yes ScarletWren summed it up well. From our perspective, we would experience no delay, as we would be "sleeping". So in that sense we would immediately be with the Lord.
This is one link which has many good explanations of the passages which can be thought to mean we are in 'heaven' or with Christ upon death.
It doesn't explain in as much detail the passage in Corinthians as the article I used to have, but still has some good insight.
That it is written by a universalist should not keep one from reading it. In my google search, I found many denominations which refuted the immortality of the soul and this article pretty much focuses on that subject.
And as said in the posts above, it will SEEM instantaneous even if it is a VERY LONG TIME between the moment of death and the resurrection.
Last edited by ScarletWren; 05-05-2010 at 11:28 AM..
Man's soul cannot be eternal. It is just the RESULT of the combination of spirit (breath) and body:
Gen 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.
So when the human dies, the spirit or breath leaves and the soul is no longer.
The soul is not an entity but is the seat of sensations. The bible says the soul is in the blood and the blood carries oxygen to the nerves and we get feelings and sense and taste etc.
Cut off the blood supply to a leg or arm and soul ceases in those areas for there is no longer sense in those areas. Allow the blood supply to those areas and soul or sensation begins again.
Also, if the story of the rich man and lazarus is a true story of what happens when one dies then the rest of the story must be true too:
Everyone goes to eternal torment only for the sole reason of getting good things in this life and
Everyone goes to heaven only for the sole reason of getting evil things in this life.
Nothing is said by Abraham that if they believe Christ died for their sins they won't end up in hell.
[quote=legoman;14012392]Awesome testimony, and it illustrates a good point - coming to believe in UR takes many many many years. For you it started when you were 17 (or maybe even before), but then it took a long time to figure it all out. God is revealing himself slowly.
I've only known and believed UR for about 2 years myself, but I knew something was wrong for many many many years before that, even when I was probably about 10 and we were in my friends backyard joking about people going to hell. Even though we laughed about it, the thought of it made me cringe on the inside. I didn't know why God would let people burn in fire forever - it made no sense, but I didn't yet have the tools and knowledge to understand what the real truth was. I didn't even know how to question the belief, because all the bibles seemed to say plainly that there was a hell. Luckily (well not really cause God doesn't leave things up to "luck") I didn't lose my faith in God - many become atheists due to eternal hell teachings.
It wasn't until I learned of translation issues and then started studying the rest of the bible that I started to understand.
You are also right about explaining this to other people. If you aren't prepared, you may put yourself in peril "spiritually". Best to study to show yourself approved first![/quote]
Hi Lego, it was a trial to me jumping into it the way I did with my parents. Both parents always taught us kids not to take what anyone says and just believe it but look into the scriptures for yourself to see if what was said was true or not.
That advise came back to bit them in the rear end when God showed me the restitution of all things because it did not matter what they said to me, it only mattered what I beleived God had shown me.
But the silver lineing in the cloud in all I went through paid off a few years ago when my mom and sisters started to see the restitution of all things also.
What a blessing to me to witness this change after so many years speaking to them of the restitution of all things.
All glory goes to the Father and may He continue to witness His love for all men to them.
Mike555 just said this in another thread: "Everyone lives forever. The choice and the issue is where will you spend eternity? Heaven or hell-the lake of fire-the Second death."
This is a perfect example of how the doctrine of immortal soul is used to support the doctrine of eternal torment.
And here I thought one could only have eternal life in Christ
Seems to me that the doctrine of ET has come up with another way to have eternal life without Christ.
Which is basically saying people can have eternal life without beleiving in Christ.
You cannot have it both ways, either eternal life is only in Christ or it is not.
Its ironic that those who beleive in ET beleive eternal life is only found in Christ yet beleive people live forever in torment without Christ.
Man's soul cannot be eternal. It is just the RESULT of the combination of spirit (breath) and body:
Gen 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.
So when the human dies, the spirit or breath leaves and the soul is no longer.
The soul is not an entity but is the seat of sensations. The bible says the soul is in the blood and the blood carries oxygen to the nerves and we get feelings and sense and taste etc.
Cut off the blood supply to a leg or arm and soul ceases in those areas for there is no longer sense in those areas. Allow the blood supply to those areas and soul or sensation begins again.
This is how I understand it taught in the bible too.
The question is, then, what is the part of us that is not the body, called consciousness? and where does that consciousness go when we are unconscious?
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