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While I don't disagree that there are decent CPS options right now is a weird time economically for Cincinnati. With all of the redevelopment going on the city NEEDS families to have decent default educational options beyond just the Kilgour (and the heretofore unmetered but potentially decent Hyde Park Elementary) or they are going to fly fly fly when the kid turns 5 just like always. (or when the tax abatement runs out- tick, tick, tick)
Those redeveloped condos will not appreciate b/c nobody with the income to afford them (in the future) would choose to live in CPS. Once I need to be at a certain point in my life/career/income to afford a certain piece of property that piece of property/neighborhood has to support my needs at that point in my life.
As long as CPS is mostly bad rather than mostly decent the cheap suburbs with good schools will win, if the suburbs ever become expensive then Cincinnati proper might have a chance as people with kids are forced back into the city.
All of my friends (the former urban pioneers of the Main Street/Northside in the late 80's/90's) are now enfranchised and want to make city life continue to work for them, however if they can't make the school thing work they are NOT going to send their kids to catholic school. This stands out to me as a significant difference btw this generation of city dwellers and those of the past.
CPS has thrown the real estate values of East Walnut Hills and Oakley a lifeline in the form of the Hyde Park Elementary so we'll see how that pans out as well. (But don't talk about it with people who were re-zoned out of the Kilgour to the new HPE.)
I remember several years ago when Mason was asking for a levy to build what they called a middle school and also to expand and renovate portions of the then high school. My wife went to several of the public meetings, stood up, addressed the crowd, and exclaimed we are being lied to. They are saying this will be the end for many years. Wake up, look around you, they will be back asking for a substantial levy to build a new HS before we turn around. They will need to convert this existing HS into a Middle School, and the so-called middle school they are proposing to build will need to become an intermediate elementary and still quickly expanded.
My youngest daughter was still in school here then. She came home and said Mom you are embarrassing me. My wife said how, for telling the truth? I am only asking for them to spell out a future plan and let everyone know how it is going to be. Those who can see what it will do to taxes can elect to move elsewhere. She was objecting to the subterfuge. The proposed levy passed, and sure enough two years later here comes another one to build a new high school which they claimed was desperately needed. Of course you have capital improvement levies for buildings then you need an operating levy to actually use them. Up go taxes because the school board is vdery clever to not identify a building levy must naturally be followed by an operating levy to actually use it.
I remember my wife saying to the youngest daughter who was in college by then, remember never trust what a politician tells you and put school board members in that same mold as they are quasi-politicians without having to put in as much time.
Anyone traveling through Mason can see the school complex, it is huge. Over 10,000 in student enrollment in a City approximately 35,000. Of course, in all honestly, large sections of Deerfield Township are also in Mason schools, so it is not like people here are populating like rabbits.
But I totally agree schools are the dominant force contained in property taxes here in Ohio and need to be contained. The schools are getting smarter with the option to have a voter approved income tax rather than a property tax. Frankly I was amazed once I researched it to see how many areas in Ohio have gone for this. To some I am sure this looks great, every renter, anyone living in the district will be paying the same rate. Like city income tax, there is no provision for deductions or anything else to reduce your tax. And if the majority are property owners in your district they can vote it in regardless.
While I don't disagree that there are decent CPS options right now is a weird time economically for Cincinnati. With all of the redevelopment going on the city NEEDS families to have decent default educational options beyond just the Kilgour (and the heretofore unmetered but potentially decent Hyde Park Elementary) or they are going to fly fly fly when the kid turns 5 just like always. (or when the tax abatement runs out- tick, tick, tick)
Those redeveloped condos will not appreciate b/c nobody with the income to afford them (in the future) would choose to live in CPS. Once I need to be at a certain point in my life/career/income to afford a certain piece of property that piece of property/neighborhood has to support my needs at that point in my life.
As long as CPS is mostly bad rather than mostly decent the cheap suburbs with good schools will win, if the suburbs ever become expensive then Cincinnati proper might have a chance as people with kids are forced back into the city.
All of my friends (the former urban pioneers of the Main Street/Northside in the late 80's/90's) are now enfranchised and want to make city life continue to work for them, however if they can't make the school thing work they are NOT going to send their kids to catholic school. This stands out to me as a significant difference btw this generation of city dwellers and those of the past.
CPS has thrown the real estate values of East Walnut Hills and Oakley a lifeline in the form of the Hyde Park Elementary so we'll see how that pans out as well. (But don't talk about it with people who were re-zoned out of the Kilgour to the new HPE.)
Your sensible posting is a breath of fresh air in this topic which has been retreaded countless times on this forum. I would only add that by all accounts the remaining Catholic grade schools in the inner, declining suburbs are suffering from many of the same problems CPS is, so they're hardly the haven from a failed system they might have been in years past. Even for the apparently declining number of parents who consider a parochial education desirable.
While I don't disagree that there are decent CPS options right now is a weird time economically for Cincinnati. With all of the redevelopment going on the city NEEDS families to have decent default educational options beyond just the Kilgour (and the heretofore unmetered but potentially decent Hyde Park Elementary) or they are going to fly fly fly when the kid turns 5 just like always. (or when the tax abatement runs out- tick, tick, tick)
Those redeveloped condos will not appreciate b/c nobody with the income to afford them (in the future) would choose to live in CPS. Once I need to be at a certain point in my life/career/income to afford a certain piece of property that piece of property/neighborhood has to support my needs at that point in my life.
As long as CPS is mostly bad rather than mostly decent the cheap suburbs with good schools will win, if the suburbs ever become expensive then Cincinnati proper might have a chance as people with kids are forced back into the city.
All of my friends (the former urban pioneers of the Main Street/Northside in the late 80's/90's) are now enfranchised and want to make city life continue to work for them, however if they can't make the school thing work they are NOT going to send their kids to catholic school. This stands out to me as a significant difference btw this generation of city dwellers and those of the past.
CPS has thrown the real estate values of East Walnut Hills and Oakley a lifeline in the form of the Hyde Park Elementary so we'll see how that pans out as well. (But don't talk about it with people who were re-zoned out of the Kilgour to the new HPE.)
Hi SoFresh99--
+rep for some good ideas there. On a semi-related note, I know that Charlie Simms in Dayton is selling some new townhomes at a pretty decent clip - I wonder how many people will leave once their tax abatements end?
I don't understand what you mean by your friends, though. If they can't make the school thing work, they're not going to send the kids to catholic school. Does that mean they'll send the kids to CPS, even if the local school is absolute rubbish?
+rep for some good ideas there. On a semi-related note, I know that Charlie Simms in Dayton is selling some new townhomes at a pretty decent clip - I wonder how many people will leave once their tax abatements end?
I don't understand what you mean by your friends, though. If they can't make the school thing work, they're not going to send the kids to catholic school. Does that mean they'll send the kids to CPS, even if the local school is absolute rubbish?
No they'll just move out of the city proper unless they have the means/desire to pay for montessori or seven hills (CCD being too far.) Cincinnati is not enormous, the move to the suburbs is hardly exile, you can be downtown or to clifton in 10-15 minutes from most good school districts and be paying less in taxes to boot. So while less desirable, suburban living is something many are willing to trade into for a decent straightforward (no waiting in line, no lottery, etc.) education option.
So do any of you who are experts on CPS have kids in the system? Or just city data pundits without any horses in the race?
I don't think anybody is claiming to be experts on CPS, only commenting due to the frequency it is brought up when people inquire as to relocating in the City. If it was a non issue it would not have such a high frequency of comments, or rather a different one - welcome the schools are great don't have any concern about them. For this reason, and this reason alone, people can wonder what is going on there, horses in the race or not. Face it, schools are a matter of great concern to people who are considering relocation.
I don't think anybody is claiming to be experts on CPS, only commenting due to the frequency it is brought up when people inquire as to relocating in the City. If it was a non issue it would not have such a high frequency of comments, or rather a different one - welcome the schools are great don't have any concern about them. For this reason, and this reason alone, people can wonder what is going on there, horses in the race or not. Face it, schools are a matter of great concern to people who are considering relocation.
But you are talking to someone who relocated to Cincinnati and is making the system work and learned about CPS potential from other parents in their neighborhood who have done the same. Now to me, that should bring about some willingness to consider the things I have said time and again. But instead it's just a city data CPS smash and bash. A majority of the posts are conventional wisdom and rumor, and in some cases ignorance.
And I still have not seen anyone be able to quantify in any meaningful way that CPS is driving off hordes of people from the city limits.
But it's ok. Have at it. I am not the great defender of CPS. I have my complaints with CPS. But I am willing to be part of the solution and have posted my experiences for those interested in CPS to understand that there are viable options in the system for those who want to live in Cincinnati proper.
Honestly, it seems that too many people who post here (mind you there are only a few) really have no understanding in what it takes to navigate a large school system. I have yet to live in any sizable city where the school system was problem free and did not require work on the parents part.
Honestly, it seems that too many people who post here (mind you there are only a few) really have no understanding in what it takes to navigate a large school system. I have yet to live in any sizable city where the school system was problem free and did not require work on the parents part.
Honestly, that is the point! Why beat yourself to death when it is so much easier to just move to a locality where there are great schools and you just sign your kids up. Especially when your tax rates are probably actually below Cincinnati's.
But you are talking to someone who relocated to Cincinnati and is making the system work and learned about CPS potential from other parents in their neighborhood who have done the same. Now to me, that should bring about some willingness to consider the things I have said time and again. But instead it's just a city data CPS smash and bash. A majority of the posts are conventional wisdom and rumor, and in some cases ignorance.
And I still have not seen anyone be able to quantify in any meaningful way that CPS is driving off hordes of people from the city limits.
But it's ok. Have at it. I am not the great defender of CPS. I have my complaints with CPS. But I am willing to be part of the solution and have posted my experiences for those interested in CPS to understand that there are viable options in the system for those who want to live in Cincinnati proper.
Honestly, it seems that too many people who post here (mind you there are only a few) really have no understanding in what it takes to navigate a large school system. I have yet to live in any sizable city where the school system was problem free and did not require work on the parents part.
I have lots of friends with kids who live in CPS who send them to Cincinnati montessori, Fairview, SCPA, Cincinnati Waldorf, North Avondale Montessori etc. Not all made it into magnets and went private, some never tried, some moved. Keep in mind that these are people who were raised in CPS, who went to Walnut or SCPA or Withrow or Hughes so they know the reality of the situation.
I am frequently laudatory about CPS's alternative approach(es) and I do feel that they are successful and surprisingly nimble for a big(ish) city school system. But they have their work cut out for them at the neighborhood level. It is incumbent upon them(and all cities that want their urban core to be viable) to create a system that does not require "navigation." I do think that many people that post here are antiCPS without having any real sense of what it is like in any other urban school district. I have posted before that CPS is head and shoulders above Boston Public, but that doesn't mean they should stop trying. Once HPE is up and running and testing well and once PRM is testing well that will give them 3 desirable neighborhood schools, one decent testing magnet elementary and two(maybe 3 with Clark) high schools of regard. Much better than Boston but still not enough to retain the population they are targeting with their redevelopment efforts.
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