Dohoney: Streetcar Has $17.4 Million Shortfall, "Needs More Funding"" (Cincinnati: fit in, lease)

[flashes1]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

To the know-it-alls -- Cincinnati Public Schools has a larger annual budget than the City of Cincinnati. The renovation of Hughes High School alone was $64 million. The renovation of it and Rothernberg School on McMicken street equals the city's debt obligation to the streetcar.

Schools are exponentially more important than a 3.8 mile street car....additionally, there's very likely a lot of waste in the $64 million school renovation. A private business probably could have done it for 1/3 the price the government did.

[motorman]

Originally Posted by flashes1

Schools are exponentially more important than a 3.8 mile street car....additionally, there's very likely a lot of waste in the $64 million school renovation. A private business probably could have done it for 1/3 the price the government did.

Respectfully disagree. Schools in general and en masse may very well be more valuable than "a streetcar," but this streetcar will positively change so much about Cincinnati and be on view from across the nation. Honestly, do you think if the reading/math/English scores of Hughes, Woodward, Taft, and Withrow high schools, combined, rose by 1/4th, anyone would even notice or care? Let's invest our $$ for maximum-bang-for-the-buck. (ie, in our game-changing streetcars)

[TomJones123]

My guess is that the memo is priming the pumps for the city to ask residents to chip in.

[natininja]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

Hi jmecklenborg--

Mm-hmm.



Sounds to me like the streetcar lovers are all emotion.

You're welcome to try again.

You ignored all the data jmeck cited. The difference is that all the studies and data in the world will not change opponents' minds. There have been multiple studies performed showing the streetcar will bring a positive ROI. There are zero studies showing it won't, just intuitions. By discounting these studies, you're conceding that your mind will never be changed regardless of any evidence introduced to the contrary. How you feel will always and forever override data produced by professionals, particular to this specific project.

Why is it the school construction jmeck mentioned is not a concern for the city's finances, but an equal amount of money for the streetcar will bankrupt the city?

The streetcar money from the city is capital bonds, which can't be spent on operating expenses, and the federal grants can't be spent on anything but the streetcar. Issuing bonds to pay operating expenses would be worse than selling assets to do so. Issuing bonds to make capital improvements, on the other hand, is sensible and commonplace.

[restorationconsultant]

I have never taken a position on the streetcar, but many have touted that Cincinnati would be 'hip and trendy" and it would bring more people into OTR.

However as I am looking at the residential build outs being done today, and talk with developers who are looking down the road, OTR real estate prices will very likely out-price the 20 somethings it was supposed to attract in the first place.

If Cincinnati is like other cities experiencing a urban turnaround, expect to see more buildouts with 2-3 car garages because as prices move towards their eventual 450-750K price range, developers will be putting in more garages, as the people in this price range , while they like the "urban exterience" they will not part with their Benz,BMW, or Porsche.

Ironically the thing the streetcar was designed to attract, young urban focused people will be the first group priced out of OTR , Sorry second group, the first group were poor blacks on assistance who were herded out of OTR and scattered to other neighborhoods.

All those who relly believed that OTR would be some multi income/multi racial nirvanna need to look at Brooklyn or Harlem in New York. There will be a need for mass transit but it will be to bring the "working poor" from the townships to do the menial jobs. And the "20 somethings", who, in my estimation, will wind up 'urban pioneering' in Price Hill, Fairmount and Camp Washington because they cant afford a 450K 1 bedroom condo in OTR.

We are already seeing 20 something OTR refugees in my neighborhood in Knox Hill in Fairmount who cant afford to pay the ever escalating rents in OTR and cannot afford to buy there.

The problem with the streetcar was, for it to really do its job, it should have been built in 2000 not 2015. So many cities are looking at streetcars to 'revitilize' their urban core they will be "Ho Hum" in another decade.

If Cincinnati REALLY wanted to be different they would be looking at funiculars or even aerial cable cars on all the Hills to handle the commute from the near burbs. I'd love to go up to St Clair Heights Park in my neighborhood and take the aerial cable car across the Millcreek valley to downtown, after all why would anyone want to be Seattle when we can be Quebec City or Switzerland?

[natininja]

^ The original funiculars worked well because they were integrated with the streetcar network. So you take one down to 8th & State, then what? It's the problem people cited with 3C: you get there, but then what? You need a proper connection to get you to a population center with a threshold density (i.e. Downtown/OTR).

I also think Camp Washington is poised for some "pioneering". It would really take off if the subway started running.

It's not just young people who ride rail transit. In fact, as more empty-nester boomers settle in the urban core and they get older and can't drive or wind up with mobility problems, the streetcar will be a godsend. Then there are tourists/visitors to think about, who can ride the streetcar to/from a number of landmarks, hotels, etc. Tracks are much more accessible to someone who doesn't know a local transit system (e.g. tourists, older people who are used to driving, even suburbanites). There's no question about where the streetcars go, or where to catch one, whereas buses can be confusing and intimidating.

[jmecklenborg]

I'm not sure why there is so much skepticism of the streetcar. Go to Portland, OR. It's ridden by a wide variety of people for a wide variety of reasons. And OTR's position between the region's #1 and #2 employment centers gives it a HUGE advantage over the Portland streetcar.

Think of it this way...

If Downtown Cincinnati is Point A and University of Cincinnati is Point C, OTR is point B.

But in Portland DT Portland is Point B. New residential areas are at Points A and C. Not nearly the ideal situation Cincinnati has, but it's getting over 10,000 riders per day over just 3~ miles of track (yes I know it just expanded a few months ago but I don't know the stats).

In Cincinnati we only have three bus routes that get over 10,000 riders per day, the #4, #17, and #43. Each of those bus lines is over 10 miles long. So when the streetcar connects DT and UC via OTR, it will be the highest ridership transit route in the city in a fraction of the distance.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I'm not sure why there is so much skepticism of the streetcar.

FUD spread by COAST. Just a guess.

[WILWRadio]

Look on the bright side. The street car budget is only over bloated by a few million and not billions like Bawston's Big Dig tunnel. What was originally projected to cost about 3 billion bucks cost the tax payers about 15 billion dollars! What's a few million for the street car eh? :-)

[jmecklenborg]

The stat on the Big Dig is not fair. The original estimate was for a much smaller project than what was built. The "Big Dig" is much more than just the tunnel under downtown, which is about 1.5 miles. There was also a new harbor tunnel, new tunnel connections to the existing harbor tunnels, a tunnel approach to the Tobin Bridge, and a tunnel under the Ft. Point Channel. I think in total it was something like 7 miles of tunnels.

Here the FWW project also grew in scope after the project began. For whatever reason it avoided the "overrun" stigma, except for the Transit Center part of the project.