Why is Cincinnati so poor? (Dayton, Kettering: 2014, renter, neighborhoods)

[SWOH]

A provocative title, but I'm really wondering. Is there no money for anything? I mean really, let's get it together and stop pleading poverty all the time. People know when you are really poor, and when you're just cheap. Right now Cincinnati is just cheap.


CNN just did a piece on the National Trust for Historic Preservation's 2014 list of the 11 most endangered places in the country. TWO (yes, TWO) of those are in Cincinnati, Union Terminal and Music Hall. The list is here:

America's most endangered historic places - CNN.com

This is inexcusable. Ohio is the only state to have TWO sites, and both are in the same city. There is no way Cincinnati can be this poor. Every other city can properly maintain their city-owned historic sites, why can't Cincinnati?

And this right after Cincinnati pleaded poverty on the Streetcar issue. Get your act together people and stop being cheap! [/rant]



In all seriousness though, why is this happening? What are the budget issues causing this strain?

[WILWRadio]

Are you kidding? Are you aware of the kind of debt the city of Cincinnati currently has with its budget in recent years? Taxes get raised in most cities and services continue to get reduced. And this is happening all over the country.

[cgs2000]

Cincinnati has heavy obligations to its pension system, a situation going back some 40 years. Taxpayers are leary of increased burdens ever since being railroaded into building two stadiums which are owned by the county but controlled by the teams. Some of the institutions demanding tax support originally pledged they would never seek public money.

[kjbrill]

Cincinnati got tied to a public employee pension program they can't afford to meet. This problem remains unresolved. Even if successful, the streetcar will be a drain on City resources for years to come, it does have to be paid for you know. The City lost a substantial amount of population in the last several decades. With that goes property taxes, the things that keep a city functioning.

Go ask the same question in Dayton. Seems to me they are experiencing a similar slump, just a smaller scale.

The fact that Cincinnati has two buildings on the national endangered historical structures list is just a coincidence.

I don't agree Cincinnati is cheap. I believe they are being forced to finally be fiscally responsible and realize they cannot just throw money around.

[flashes1]

Yes, the pension obligations will slow public works projects, and the street car and Freedom Center operating losses will be cash losses. These are things most big Southern cities don't have.

[Briolat21]

Income per capita in Cinci is 3.1% < Ohio average; 7.1% < National average

Median Household income in Cinci is 32.9%< Ohio average; 35.6%< Nataional average

Owner occupied housing in Cinci has a median household income 133.7% > Renter Ocupied Housing

Poverty level in Cinci is 143.5% > Ohio average, 78.2% > National average


So - while its likely true that hipsters moving in to OTR and the Banks have higher than average incomes, please remember - your entire city population is not urban hipsters.

Just as with many other cities throughout the midwest that have suffered economic setbacks over the last 40 years, there obviously is some significant poverty that counterbalances the new urban wealth -- and as such the city's budget has to reflect those realities. Or tax the heck out of corporate citizens (which with the tax incentives they gave to GE to occupy the banks, is clearly not their strategy).

You may be tired that Cincy can't throw money at every project you deem worthy that comes along, but I'm sure there are many more in the city who could care less about a concert hall when all they're concerned with is surviving the month on their meager finances.

Maybe once the urbanophiles have sucessfully evicted the poor from the city borders and there's a minimum 6 figure income required in order to be come a Cincinnati resident the city will be able to successfully support all those projects that are of such concern. (stadiums, museum/train stations, music hall, pretty parks, bike trails, and streetcars) On Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I would suggest the urban poor and the urban hipsters are operating at very different levels.

[SWOH]

So it looks like pensions, the Freedom Center, and the ballfields are the major sources of blame. I'm excluding the streetcar for now just because a large portion of it is going to be paid for by non-profit organizations that are not affiliated with the city.


All of those are big-ticket items. But why is Cincinnati funding the Freedom Center? A place like that could easily be funded by donations. It has a very clear and important mission, and I'm sure others could get behind it. Can it be spun off or have its stock sold? Re-incorporate it as a non-profit corporation and sell shares. No reason for the city to own it or fund it, the institution would probably do better without the city.

And the ballfields were a bad deal. That's well known. But I thought they were going to be paid for within 20 years of the the beginning of construction? Please correct me if I am wrong, because I do not have a source or a good knowledge of city finances.

If money really is so tight, why doesn't the city sell more bonds? It's more debt, yes, but at least it's relatively easy to default on bonds. Investors buy them with a knowledge of the inherent risk.

Or better yet, why doesn't the city work harder to eliminate its pension debt by any means possible? Personally I wouldn't even rule out bankruptcy if it got those pensioners permanently off the city's back. Pension debt would be the first thing to go on the bankruptcy chopping block. Paying for every worldly expense for a few rich pensioners should not be a reason to decimate the city's historic and architectural treasures. Put them back to work, no one should count on a free lunch (pardon my French, I greatly dislike pensions). Maybe they should actually earn their pensions by fixing up the Museum Center and Music Hall haha. I know I won't be in my old age, because in 50 years I doubt Social Security or pensions will exist. I'll be getting a 401k like everyone else and making cuts in my own budget to save for retirement. No fat-cat deals.



Also, who really owns Music Hall and Union Terminal? The city? Why?
Shouldn't Music Hall be owned and operated by the arts groups who use it? And why are the museums a part of the city and not a separate organization?

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Go ask the same question in Dayton. Seems to me they are experiencing a similar slump, just a smaller scale.

The fact that Cincinnati has two buildings on the national endangered historical structures list is just a coincidence.

I don't agree Cincinnati is cheap. I believe they are being forced to finally be fiscally responsible and realize they cannot just throw money around.

I don't want to send this off-topic, but I will briefly answer about Dayton. Hensleya1 may want to correct me on some of these points, as he may be more in the know about who owns and funds what organizations.


Dayton as a city doesn't have as much spending to do. That's the main difference.

Dayton is fortunate to have an extensive electric trolleybus system in place. It's been in use since the streetcar days, and it is highly efficient. It's not particularly sexy and it's not a streetcar, but right now there is zero demand for a streetcar. I can't see one making sense until maybe 10 years down the road, when housing is built downtown and Midtown is well-revitalized (so after the near $200mil Fairgrounds redevelopment is complete + other developments). Then it may make sense to have a higher frequency line connect what will be Dayton's core of wealth between Town and Country Shopping Center in Kettering through Oakwood, UD, MVH, South Park / OD, along Patterson up to Riverscape and the Water St. development. But that's a long ways off and would have to be funded by a county levy.

Our museums are either funded by non-profits or by the Federal Government. The Air Force Museum (not in city limits) is funded by the Air Force, the Wright Bros. sties are a part of the national park service, the Art Institute is not connected to the city, nor is Dayton History which runs Carillon Park, Sunwatch, or the Boonshoft Museum. Fifth Third Field, where the Dayton Dragons play, is owned by private enterprise (for a long time Mandalay Entertainment Group). And our most iconic arena is UD Arena, which is owned by the University of Dayton, a private college. The football stadium behind it is owned by the City of Dayton I believe. Many parks throughout the city are operated by the county Metroparks, which does an excellent job. Our RTA is county-funded, and a big fight was caused over funding between the RTA and the City of Beavercreek, in Greene County, where the RTA wanted to run a line. This fight happened despite the fact that the RTA was going to pay for the entire line, and only Beavercreek residents were outraged.

[CincyIU29]

To put in simply, Warren, Butler, and Clermont counties (As well as Boone, Kenton, and Campbell) need to chip in for the amenities they enjoy but don't pay for whatsoever. They use the city to attract potential residents, but counterintuitively they do everything to stand in the way of Cincinnati becoming a progressive, urbane city like Austin or Portland (Our city has more potential than both IMHO)

The architecture in Cincinnati is a treasure in both diversity and the scale which it is spread out through the city. We need to preserve it and revitalize it.

Cincinnati has the architecture to become a truly amazing city. We need to preserve our landmarks and rebuild all of our neighborhoods, not just OTR.

I support tax increases for these projects. We pay very little in taxes compared to the rest of the world. I'd pay extra to make sure these institutions remain viable.

Both the museum center and music hall are iconic structures we can't afford to lose. No pun intended.

[unusualfire]

I will have to say fixing those two icons will not bring in additional revenue. Didn't they sell music hall for $1? The street car does have a return on investment. The GE deal alone makes it worth it and it's not even running yet. Also the streetcar is on a different budget than union terminal and music hall. Don't the county owns union terminal?

If the streetcar goes bust which I think it won't. It will not effect the general budget that has run these so called high deficits.