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Sometimes I am at a loss for what is being said. In some threads I read what the CBD and downtown need in the worst way is a full service grocery store which can serve the needs if the residents in the same fashion as the suburban stores.
Yet here is a complaint Kroger built a much larger store in Price Hill than what was needed. I am sure Kroger would not have built it unless they felt it was going to be profitable. So what is the complaint? They did not just stick to edible food items? So what? If they are providing items people need on a regular basis what is the problem? The Kroger near me has one isle which is just pet food and supporting items like cat litter. Another isle is just cleaning products, laundry detergent, bleach, dishwasher soap, etc. Neither of these isles are edible but I venture to say probably produce more profit than anything in the canned vegetable isle.
I get a kick out of the comment the Price Hill store is a suburban style grocery, which I am sure was their intent. Please explain to me what products the suburban consumer gets from a grocery store which urban consumers do not need? My guess is the Price Hill consumers are damn glad Kroger built that store and they now have one destination shopping. They just wish there was enough room to have a Meijer and a Walmart in the same area so they could comparison shop.
The reason should be plainly obvious...it's the same reason why you don't use a bulldozer to plant petunias or why a dentist doesn't use a 16lb sledge and chisel to clean teeth. These neighborhoods are simple not designed to accommodate stores with such large suburban style footprint. You end up having to tear down half the neighborhood to fit them in and they are an instant eyesore. Mt Washington's store is another example of how this does not work. It amazes me that Kroger has not been able to figure out how to make a profit in a smaller footprint urban-style store. Their competition clearly has, as the model has been made successful not only in Chicago, but also San Diego and many other cities across the country.
Now, Price Hill may not have the demographics to support an urban grocery, because these stores are merchandised differently, catering to a more upscale clientele who buy higher margin items. However, downtown is increasingly being populated with exactly this clientele, and Kroger's reluctance to try this business model is allowing a competitor to get a toehold on the home turf at 4th and Race. Too bad.
Let me preface my reply by saying I'm not a regular to this forum. I don't know Cincinnati that well, and am only following this thread because I'm interested in home restoration. But, I assume they are referring to the Kroger on Warsaw Ave. (Google maps)
If I am correct, the complaint with this Kroger is probably that it is completely out of place, and doesn't fit with the rest of the neighborhood. Something like this would have been a much better fit: Urban Grocery store in Georgetown | Better! Cities & Towns Online
I will grant the architectural appearance of the Georgetown grocery in pleasing. The overall design is a little perplexing in that the roof height is so high, seemingly indicating a two story building. That is highly unusual for a grocery simply for the fact it is a hassle to go from floor to floor with a grocery cart, even if a large elevator is installed.
They tout the fact it is built right to the sidewalk as being a pedestrian feature. Sure it is convenient for pedestrians, but when is the last time you saw someone pushing or pulling an overloaded cart from the grocery to their living quarters? If you are limited to what the average person is willing to carry any distance you don't need a full service grocery, a quick Stop&Shop for a half gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, a dozen eggs plus maybe a pound of weinies or bacon will do, and maybe a pound of sliced ham, roast beef, or bologna. Soon as you bulk it up with a head of lettuce, a pound or two of tomatoes, maybe some sliced cheese for those ham & cheese sandwiches it starts to become unwieldly. Throw in a jar of mayo for those sandwiches and it is downright heavy.
My wife and her caregiver go shopping probably two days a week. The wife needs her power wheelchair to get around, requiring the wheelchair minivan. So they prefer locations with handicapped parking right out front. But they don't limit themselves to just one store. The wife prefers our local Meijer for many of the staples. But then they also go to the local butcher shop as she is finding a more consistent quality of meat, cut, sized, and packaged to just the needs of two people. But then it is off to Costco for specific items. Their Kirkland house brand has become one of our favorites, particularly items like canned tuna for salads or sandwiches. Their Kirkland 100% Albacore white tuna beats the national brands sideways. Their canned chicken is also very good for such as chicken salad. They also purchase items like paper goods, toilet paper, towels, napkins, tissues, etc. in bulk size packages. Then it is off to the feed & grain store to buy bird seed, peanuts in the shell, dried corn on the cob, and such to feed her collection of backyard critters. By the time they get home it probably takes the better part of an hour to unload the minivan. So what you desire and want from a grocery store varies with your situation.
Mt. Adams is a far better example. There are some individual garages, but most places don't have them. The value of living space is higher than the value of vehicle space. The parking lease could help sway that, but would more likely result in public garages which can pack in a bunch of cars in less space.
If you are not turned on by walkability, there is little reason to prefer Over-the-Rhine over a nearby neighborhood which is more auto-friendly. I have a hard time seeing living space which is high-value suddenly becoming more valuable as car space. That's the reverse of how increasing real estate values function. Just as buildings which can be sold broken up into condos are unlikely to be more valuable as single-family homes. The view you put forth of how increasing real estate values affect land use is backwards. Otherwise we'd see tons of single family homes with garages in Manhattan and other city centers around the country, and we don't. Five 300k units is preferred by the market over one $1m house (especially one which is missing 20% of its living space because of a garage).
That said, I do think there will be some creativity with introducing personal garages in the neighborhood, just as can be seen in Mt. Adams, Prospect Hill, and other neighborhoods in other cities (though those Cincy neighborhoods have more single family houses than OTR). It just won't be pervasive, just like it isn't in those places. Indy might be different, being essentially a sunbelt city which is controlled by suburban interests. The Mt. Adams model is more reflective of Cincinnati, plus remember OTR residents will be able to cover ground with the streetcar, not to mention bus service is infinitely better in OTR than Mt. Adams, and biking is far more functional when you're not up on a hill.
What would you say is the OTR-equivalent area in Indy?
As a preservationist, don't you think garages everywhere would completely ruin the "period feel" of a neighborhood with storefronts and windows as the primary ground-floor aesthetic?
If you are making a comparison of OTR to a downtown Indy neighborhood...the closest thing would be the "riley area". That would be the neighborhoods of Lockeribie, Chatham Arch, Mass Ave and St Joseph. Architecturally they are not the same except they are small lot spaces and there are some rows of Victorian era townhouses in the St Joseph neighborhood has a lot of urban density with a lot of new infill townhouses and as a result a ton of cars. These neighborhoods have the advantage of a quality downtown grocery Marsh Lockerbie Marketplace and Mass Avenue with all its high end bars and eateries. I might add that the Grocery downtown occupies the first floor of what once was the downtown Sears built in an art deco style they used across the country. It also has a large parking lot behind it and its interesting to watch people get into their cars and drive 2 blocks to the store. The neighborhood I last lived in, Holy Cross, was a 10-15 minute walk to downtown but no one ever walks it when you can be in a car and be there in 5 mins and trust me restoring a house without a garage would be "Real estate Suicide". Every house I restored the first thing I had to do is built a new 2 car garage behind it. In fact they are building a new development ( 17 new urbanist style homes) on some land that had a warehouse on it and the lots (25x95 feet) are selling from 35-58K each and all the homes will have two car garages because the homes are all 350-500K range.
Garages are almost always off alleys so they dont disturb the 'feel' of the streetscape. also most are Carriage house garages with living space above.
The reality is parking is high value commodity. Look at what people in New York and San Franciso pay to own a spot in a parking garage. The facts are that many who move to an urban environ especially wealthier individuals, want a garage in fact its even better if they do not have to go outside (security). As prices rise in OTR, remember they are building at 300 a square foot now. People in that price range want a place to park their car.
in and they are an instant eyesore. Mt Washington's store is another example of how this does not work. It amazes me that Kroger has not been able to figure out how to make a profit in a smaller footprint urban-style store. Their competition clearly has, as the model has been made successful not only in Chicago, but also San Diego and many other cities across the country.
!!!!!!! I don't get this either. Even Wal-Mart has a decent urban model.
They tout the fact it is built right to the sidewalk as being a pedestrian feature. Sure it is convenient for pedestrians, but when is the last time you saw someone pushing or pulling an overloaded cart from the grocery to their living quarters?
Happens all the time in Oakley. It's such a problem that Kroger has to periodically be called to round up the carts from around the neighborhood.
Back to my quest for information on the construction projects in S. Fairmount involving MSD and Cincinnati DOT. I spoke with a nice gentleman at MSD and asked a few questions I had about their project as well as the proposed widening of Westwood Ave. I have looked all over for information about the widening on the internet but cannot find anything. If you have a link please post it here or message me with it.
According to the man I spoke with at MSD, the city is talking about making Westwood the main throughway in that area. Thus all the homes on the south side of Westwood will need to be demoed to make room for the highway. Although, MSD did tell me the project was still in planning stages and had not come up for formal approval yet. I was very disheartened after our conversation. Not only will most homes between Westwood/Queen City be demolished (unless there is inervention), but all the homes on Westwood could go as well.
I feel like this kind of thing always happens in areas that are a run down. This would never happen in a neighborhood where you had lots of owner occupied homes. Ug, part of me still wants to rehab that house on Westwood, but I think it would break my heart to have to see it torn down to make way for a multi-lane highway.
They tout the fact it is built right to the sidewalk as being a pedestrian feature. Sure it is convenient for pedestrians, but when is the last time you saw someone pushing or pulling an overloaded cart from the grocery to their living quarters?
I see it all the time, you can get wheeled carts that make it not so hard - http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/07...90_500X500.jpg Though I'll admit that most people in Chicago pretty much the number one reason they drive is to get groceries, though even then there are creative solutions to that problem like making the rooftop have parking - New Vons, Its Rooftop Parking Opening In Long Beach - Grocery Stores - Curbed LA which satisfys both pedestrian shoppers and auto shoppers as well as having the same positive effects of not tearing down business districts which would deaden the liveliness of the neighborhood.
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The overall design is a little perplexing in that the roof height is so high, seemingly indicating a two story building.
Having a "cart escalator" is much less hassle and more efficient than a large elevator which makes 2 story urban groceries a pleasant shopping experience.
Kroger is doing the urban neighborhoods of Cincinnati a great disservice by not adopting these innovations in its hometown.
Pedestrian-friendly design is not about convenience for customers as much as making the streetscape inviting for all pedestrians (customers or not). Parking can be put behind the building, sacrificing little or no convenience for motorists. When a street is lined with parking lots, fewer people want to walk on it. Blank walls are also uninviting for people walking. These are established facts, backed by tons of data. If you introduce these things to neighborhoods, you cut down on the number of pedestrians, all other things being equal.
Encouraging people to walk is a plus for public health and the environment, and ensuring a pleasant (and safe) environment for pedestrians is the right thing to do for people who can't afford to drive. (It also lures residents who prefer not to drive.) It is good for the local economy, since it reduces the amount of money people spend on fuel which isn't sourced or refined in Cincinnati; that money is then available for people to spend here and not Venezuela, Texas, or wherever.
Keeping parking lots and blank walls away from the street is more important than keeping a smaller footprint. But a smaller footprint allows for more businesses in less space, which means more places a pedestrian can walk to in a shorter distance, which is obviously beneficial. It's a bit harder to justify, though, in an area with relatively low property values. Making sure a building fronts the street (doesn't have a setback, especially not a parking lot) and has windows and some architectural features to break up the monotony of the street wall should be standard, regardless. Those things are quite simple, and should be requirements for developers. Those requirements are quite minimal when you consider how specific land use restrictions can get for parcels in suburban communities.
The reality is parking is high value commodity. Look at what people in New York and San Franciso pay to own a spot in a parking garage. The facts are that many who move to an urban environ especially wealthier individuals, want a garage in fact its even better if they do not have to go outside (security). As prices rise in OTR, remember they are building at 300 a square foot now. People in that price range want a place to park their car.
Many, many people in San Fran and NYC depend on public transit. End of story. Living car free is much more prevalent in these cities. I think Indy is one of the most pedestrian unfriendly cities I have seen in a long time. Very sprawled, and not to mention when you get further away from downtown, you start losing side walks altogether. Indy is a car city. NYC and San Fran are not. Big difference. OTR is small, and densely built and has way too many parking garages as it stands.
I remember seeing those rickety wire carts on wheels years ago. They will twist and buckle under any real load and the weak and small wheels do not roll very smoothly on even rough concrete walks let alone when you have to go up or down a curb. The standard grocery cart is about 10 times more stable. Maybe that is why I see carts from the grocery store just left by the side of the road by uncaring people who wheel them home.
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Originally Posted by neilworms2
Though I'll admit that most people in Chicago pretty much the number one reason they drive is to get groceries, though even then there are creative solutions to that problem like making the rooftop have parking - New Vons, Its Rooftop Parking Opening In Long Beach - Grocery Stores - Curbed LA which satisfys both pedestrian shoppers and auto shoppers as well as having the same positive effects of not tearing down business districts which would deaden the liveliness of the neighborhood..
I looked at the content of the link and noticed how many complaints they have from neighboring residents complaining about the light and noise interrupting their ability to sleep. Also, how do you get the groceries to the roof, one of the following cart escalators or an elevator? Seems like a hassle to me.
I noticed there were no people on the cart escalator, probably due to personal injury liability considerations. From just the picture a little difficult to determine just what kept the spacing of the carts on the escalator. Also the purpose of what looked like folding gates at the bottom was a bit hard to decipher, especially how they would function. Also, if I am correct, you need a minimum of 4 escalators, a Up and a Down cart escalator and a Up and a Down human escalator. This starts to eat up some space. Although we have few left, I also remember the pushing and shoving which went on with people wanting to get on or off an escalator. I imagine this is even worse when you are talking about handling grocery carts. Let's face it people just have a me, me, me attitude.
None of these solutions appear to be without problems.
I do recall one grocery I was at, I believe in the DC area, where you checked out and paid for the groceries inside the store. Then they put the bagged groceries back into a cart and wheeled them out to the front of the store. They gave you a placard with a number on it with a matching placard(s) on the cart(s). After you retrieved your car and drove up to the front of the store a store employee loaded your groceries into the trunk of the car. This was very efficient and a definite boon to the senior customer, especially if the weather was not so friendly.
Last edited by kjbrill; 09-17-2013 at 03:27 PM..
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Sad today
