Is Cincinnati really dangerous? No. (Avon, Baltimore: 2013, murder rate, rankings)

[Wilson513]

A school is a service business. The students and their parents are the clients. The school administration is the management. Somehow, in public schools, this has gotten all out of whack where the teachers think they are in charge and the administration is there to cut their pay checks and pay their benefits and the parents and students be damned.

[neilworms2]

Has it ever been considered dividing CPS into multiple separate districts, each with its own administration, budget, etc? Or is that illegal as it would be considered discriminatory? If a city can have recognized designated neighborhoods, community councils, etc., why not separate recognized schools districts rather than one large inefficient monolith? Those who advocate the resurgency of urban living need to recognize people desire to be associated with something they can embrace, an identity.

Excellent idea that I wish would gain traction. Though one would still have to figure out how to manage a few large scale magnet schools like Walnut Hills and the CPA. Not only this but the smaller districts could be better tailored to the individual needs of each community which would in turn allow for a sense of community responsibly and pride to be built into the schools. The problem is it would never fly as it would be considered as discriminatory.

The only other hope I have is that my generation's affinity of the city translates into more and more people settling down and working together to fight to improve city schools. Demographic changes may mean that suburban schools in immediate post-war (ranch house) suburbs may be the worst, interesting changes are happening in the urban-suburban landscape (you see it a lot stronger in some other older cities that still have strong economies) but its too early to figure out what the results will be.

[progmac]

Originally Posted by Chemistry_Guy

I don't trust the assessments that evaluate education. If you carefully look at school report cards, you will see that the assessments are all based on changes and not on raw performance. Also, there is a tremendous amount of "grade inflation" on the assessment scale. For example, some suburban schools will consistently have 80%+ of their students test "advanced" on a scale from limited -- basic -- proficient -- accelerated -- advanced in certain subjects. On the other hand, an urban school will have 3% test as advanced one year and then 6% the next year, and then get a rating increase because they improved so much.

I know there are other metrics that rank schools based on different criteria, but the amount of marketing misdirection initiated by CPS, particularly at the high school level, is pretty egregious and can be downright misleading. Without going into too much detail, I have been involved in several roles with the high school science students of the Cincinnati area for several years, and I have had high school students from a variety of public and private schools from the area visit and work in my lab. The only CPS high school where I met students that have a real chance of passing college level science courses is Walnut Hills. I know the risks associated with making generalizations based on small sample sizes, so I am not suggesting that the well prepared students do not exist. Still, I met students that had 4.0+ GPAs and straight A's in all sciences, backed by glowing teacher recommendations, but were completely unprepared for 100 level science courses courses at UC, Xavier, NKU, Mt. St. Joe's, or other local colleges and universities. It breaks my heart to see students sent off to colleges with such high expectations (medical school usually) only to face a grim reality three weeks into the semester when faced with the first chemistry, biology, physics or calculus test.

You as well as anyone know that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Regarding the first part, I think see the part of the state report cards you are talking about. District wide, they show that in 2004-2005, 32% of students tested at "limited / below basic" and in 2010-2011, 15.2% of students tested at this level. that sure seems encouraging to me. at the other end, the data show 18.8 were testing at accelerated or advanced in 2004-2005 and in 2010-11, 28% were at this level. advanced alone went from 9% to 12%. i'm not seeing any data points at the 3-6% level that you inferred as common. I didn't look at any of the data for individual school buildings.

I just am not seeing how the numbers don't show fairly dramatic improvement. I'd be curious to know what data I'm missing.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by progmac

You as well as anyone know that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Regarding the first part, I think see the part of the state report cards you are talking about. District wide, they show that in 2004-2005, 32% of students tested at "limited / below basic" and in 2010-2011, 15.2% of students tested at this level. that sure seems encouraging to me. at the other end, the data show 18.8 were testing at accelerated or advanced in 2004-2005 and in 2010-11, 28% were at this level. advanced alone went from 9% to 12%. i'm not seeing any data points at the 3-6% level that you inferred as common. I didn't look at any of the data for individual school buildings.

I just am not seeing how the numbers don't show fairly dramatic improvement. I'd be curious to know what data I'm missing.

I think Chemistry Guy's point is that the test results may not be much of an indicator of future success in college course work, regardless of percentage changes.

Having spent most of my married life with a professor who encountered large numbers of these unprepared students, many from high schools where they'd been praised as outstanding paragons of learning, I know exactly what he's talking about. Or at least I think I do.

[progmac]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

I think Chemistry Guy's point is that the test results may not be much of an indicator of future success in college course work, regardless of percentage changes.

Earlier it was stated that money spent improving CPS was money down the drain, I was saying that I didn't think the data agreed with that assessment. That was the beginning and end of my point.

[Chemistry_Guy]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

I think Chemistry Guy's point is that the test results may not be much of an indicator of future success in college course work, regardless of percentage changes.

Having spent most of my married life with a professor who encountered large numbers of these unprepared students, many from high schools where they'd been praised as outstanding paragons of learning, I know exactly what he's talking about. Or at least I think I do.

You are correct. When you rank students on a 5 point scale and a high percentage of the 5's are not ready for college, the scale is obviously inflated. The range from 1 to 4.5 or so only separates the low F's from the high F's at any reputable college.

Obviously the expectations are very different at Taft or Woodward compared to Mariemont and Sycamore, and I understand there are deeper socioeconomic dividers in play. Still, to me it is dishonest and counterproductive to hand out A+'s and glowing recommendations to students that will struggle to pass a single college class. I have come to the conclusion that recommendations and grades from science teachers at several CPS schools are worthless because I have been burned 100% of the time that I have taken them at even half of their face value. Ultimately it is a disservice to the students as it causes college admissions and summer program staff to tune out their applications. No one would know if a truly excellent student existed because their transcript and recommendations would look exactly like everyone else.

Maybe this inflation is only present at the classroom level and does not permeate the institutions as a whole, but I doubt it. When you are grading on a curve it is easy to make results say whatever you want them to say. Meanwhile, higher education and the real world job market are increasingly competitive, particularly in scientific fields.

[Chemistry_Guy]

Originally Posted by progmac

Earlier it was stated that money spent improving CPS was money down the drain, I was saying that I didn't think the data agreed with that assessment. That was the beginning and end of my point.

I agree with you that money spent on education is not wasted, but I really question the way that CPS spends the money and uses rigged evaluations to justify the way they use their resources.

[Cincy Rider]

Wow, the last post that was on topic was post #400.

Don't worry about the topic, just steer it to what you want to talk about.

[Taking Flight]

Will try to make this brief (hard for an old man). I am a card carrying, true American Indian. Started out in Ida Spence in Covington (1970's) then to Mount Adams. Left, spent years in the Military. Combat included. Retired, became a contract Self-Defense Instructor for the Federal Government. Know how to defend myself (and others). Train everyday. Still could easily be a victim. I just decrease the chances.

To the point. I go anywhere I want in Cincinnati. Don't worry about harm. Don't intend any harm. I know fully well even a child can point and pull, strike, stab or steal. Anything can happen. Saying that, it is fairly rare, and most people I know have never been victims of anything truly serious. These are my thoughts:

Cincinnati can be dangerous. Any city can be. Even small population towns (some are worse than the Cities, but are not made as public). Cincinnati is a wonderful, beautiful and vibrant City if you "get into it" and take full advantage of all it has to offer.

Crime has no race or border. It has no sympathy Think about the crimes or regrets you may have been party to. If so, you know a lot about how to avoid some bad situations.

As you know, crime is often committed out of one time drunkenness (or high), addiction, poverty (greed, want), ignorance, perversion, mental illness, moment of temper, or just plain evil (mean). It has no schedule and cannot always be predicted. It can be sudden or build slow to fast.

Connect with Police, Vendors, and talk with strangers when in a relatively safe place (other people around). Do not be paranoid, judgmental, or estrange yourself from neighbors, community events (celebrations, etc.) Have a good time. Just use your knowledge, common sense, and if inclined, do things to gain more confidence. Be alive, not dull!

There are many, many more good things and people, in Cincinnati than bad. Learn the history, who the city was named after by whom. You will find the Indian, Roman connection mildly amusing.

[maxmodder]

Originally Posted by Cincy-Rise

Great post.


The funny thing is ... try to get an educated/factual answer and you leave the TGI Friday-going-cookie-cutter people clueless.


The city of Cincinnati is coming back hard, get on board or get out of the way.

And as we fast forward 7 years, we still are still waiting to "get on board" this ever so elusive streetcar. Seems like my decision to reside in the suburbs was the correct decision. I didn't believe the city vs suburb hype back then, and I don't believe it now.