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When I think of job concentration/centralization, I'm thinking of a large concentration of jobs in a 2-2.5 sq. mile area, not a 66 sq. mile area.
Right! Ray posted job centers sometimes 12 miles and 15 miles away from downtown L.A. How is that relevant to what we are talking about. I guess I should post Rockville Md and Gaithersburg Md up here too.
Regarding the temporary settlements, I was going to argue that they are not permanent and so don't constitute a "town" or a "city," but I checked the definitions of town/city and there is no mention of permanence... So even the standard accepted definition of "urban" is filled with holes.
Yeah I know, they all fall under definitions of "urban" by some definitions, population, maybe the people are"urbanites" ... maybe there is commercial exchange going on, maybe the settlement is longterm... etc.
It's pretty obvious NYC is the most urban city in the country. Why are we discussing semantics? Most of us know what urban means when used in context most of the time on these forums. It generally means how built up an area is and that generally includes density. Population and structural density generally comes along with a lot of amenities within a small space.
Well yeah, there is a generally accepted context in *most* threads, yet in some, these parameters are expanded or truncated to fit the needs of the userbase arguing for X city. Either away, they are still vague, and city data is no authority on definitions. So instead of jsut saying urban... just talk about what you want to talk about. Just ask which city has the best "street walls, transit, cohesive neighborhoods and structural density." Because if you just say urban, many things can mean urban.
By the way, many of the job centers you are posting are really far from your downtown. Half of them are over 10 miles away. That is not a job node connected to the core. You don't bounce 10 miles. You travel 10 miles.
To be fair though the first part of the list is all within a very similar relative range distance wise to what your list was
The second part is more similar to DC and extending to say Dulles, Reston, Gaithersburg, Rockville, Laurel etc.
And all these will be (soma already are) connected via pretty decent rail options (Metro is better and will be though)
DC absolutely excels in core jobs though relative to almost any place
Well yeah, there is a generally accepted context in *most* threads, yet in some, these parameters are expanded or truncated to fit the needs of the userbase arguing for X city.
That happens in all threads. It's not unique to this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico
Either away, they are still vague, and city data is no authority on definitions. So instead of jsut saying urban... just talk about what you want to talk about. Just ask which city has the best "street walls, transit, cohesive neighborhoods and structural density." Because if you just say urban, many things can mean urban.
So instead of saying New York is more "urban" than Chicago, I should just say it has more (not the "best") and higher streetwalls, more transit riders, more cohesiveness, higher employment density, higher structural density and greater population density?
So instead of saying New York is more "urban" than Chicago, I should just say it has more (not the "best") and higher streetwalls, more transit riders, more cohesiveness, higher employment density, higher structural density and greater population density?
If you are talking to a friend, yes. On here, the latter, otherwise...you see what happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
That happens in all threads. It's not unique to this one.
well I said in *some*... some go along just dandy where these things are obvious it is usually in major cities with a large userbase these issues pop up.
well I said in *some*... some go along just dandy where these things are obvious it is usually in major cities with a large userbase these issues pop up.
But that really has nothing to do with the "vagueness of the parameters." It has more to do with pride and ego.
I'm sure if you count any and everything as a job node, then L.A. being so large obviously does. But what is your criteria for being a job node? Mine would be atleast 80,000 jobs in that node. Also, it should be compact, not spread out.
For instance:
2005 Data:
Downtown DC: 638,037 jobs
Pentagon/Reagan Airport/Alexandria: 141,162 jobs
Tyson's Corner: 92,603 jobs
Bethesda/Friendship Heights: 93,966 jobs
Rosslyn/Ballston: 88,279 jobs
etc.
etc.
etc.
What do the L.A. numbers look like? I have never seen anything on job nodes outside of downtown L.A. What compact urban job nodes exist near downtown L.A. in comparison. Maybe I am wrong. Let me know.
I don't have the specific numbers, but all of these are over 50k jobs according to this study and they are in order by size:
1. DTLA (Blue, Expo, Red, Purple, Gold Lines, All Metrolink Lines)
3. LAX - El Segundo (Green Line)
4. Commerce - Vernon (mostly blue collar jobs) (Santa Ana Branch Corridor 2025)
5. Beverly Hills - Century City (Purple Line 2025)
8. Burbank - Studio City (Red Line in Studio City [sort of] - rail to Burbank is in the next generation of rail projects, Ventura and Antelope Valley Metrolink Lines)
11. Westwood - West LA (2015 Expo / 2025 Purple Line)
13. Santa Monica (2015 Expo)
14. Torrance (2025 Green Line)
16. Industry (mostly blue collar jobs)
18. Warner Center (Orange Line)
19. Pasadena (Gold Line)
22. Glendale (rail to Glendale is in the next generation of rail projects, Ventura and Antelope Valley Metrolink Lines)
26. Chatsworth - Northridge (Orange Line, Ventura Metrolink)
30. Hollywood (Red Line)
31. El Monte (Silver Line Transit Way, Gold Line Eastside Extension 2030)
32. Van Nuys (2025 East San Fernando Valley Corridor / Sepulveda Pass Line, Ventura Metrolink)
Bolded means they are currently served by rail. As you can see there are plans for most all of these to be linked up to Metro Rail. The dates are just an estimation, it is hard to tell when they will get finished because Metro is aggressively pursuing funding to speed Measure R projects up by a decade. You can see I left out the ones I figured would raise a stink by others, since they are in Orange County / Inland Empire / North LA County - I even left Long Beach off.
- Some of these are more spread out and not considered a compact jobs-center (Commerce / Industry / Chatsworth / El Monte).
- Others, like the Santa Monica / West LA / Beverly Hills / Hollywood job centers, butt up against each and bleed into each other (which is why the Purple Line extension should get well over its predicted ridership of 90k).
Quote:
Interestingly, both studies acknowledge an “overwhelmingly dominant” “megacenter. . . that spans an arc along the Wilshire Corridor from east LA to Santa Monica” (Giuliano & Redfearn, 2007, p.2952 & 2945).
Quote:
These subcenters individually are consistently among the strongest of the region, and sometimes are separated from each other not by discontinuity but by the study author’s assumptionthat a center so large in area is preposterous on its face, or at least not a useful analysis result (Giuliano & Small, 1991, p.167). Thus the supposed lack of centrality in Los Angeles is actually merely an unwillingness to accept the singular center that could be formed by the potential combination of these arc-aligned subcenters.
One thing to keep in mind is that Los Angeles is a decentralized region, so it really doesn't matter to many people that these job centers are 5-10 miles away from DTLA. They are all adjacent to some very dense residential development, which is one big difference between them DC's TOD nodes, which are dense developments surrounded by typical MD / VA sprawl.
Last edited by munchitup; 06-27-2013 at 09:38 AM..
By the way, many of the job centers you are posting are really far from your downtown. Half of them are over 10 miles away. That is not a job node connected to the core. You don't bounce 10 miles. You travel 10 miles.
?????
Your words: If you want to talk about multi-nods, you sure you L.A. has more jobs nodes than D.C.?
In the Northeast, it may indeed be very intuitive as to what "urban" means. You look at the suburbs and you look at the central city, and there's a stark difference. As you move toward the core, the streetwall gets progressively tighter and higher, the percentage of residents that use transit increases, and the employment and population density increases. You have a pretty clear (at least perceived) progression from "suburban" to "urban" and this sets up a very nice dichotomy between the two.
In Los Angeles, this spectrum is much less clear. It exists to a degree, but to a much lesser degree than, say, in Boston.
Is Manhattan Beach or South LA more urban? Ask residents which one is the suburb and which is urban, and everyone will have a clear response (MB=suburb, SLA=urban). And yet Manhattan Beach has more consistent streetwalls, greater mixed use, a cohesive downtown, vibrant pedestrian culture, etc. etc.
There exists a great deal of confusion in Los Angeles about where the greatest population density is (it's koreatown, but many Westsiders believe they live in the densest part of Los Angeles--especially people in West Hollywood), or where the greatest number of jobs are. Residents don't have the same clear picture of their metropolis that exists in more centralized cities, especially in the Northeast and Midwest.
I try my best to understand it, and it's still confounding. One thing is clear, though: a neat dichotomy of "urban" and "suburban" does not exist.
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