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That might be true for the city limits. But Atlanta has roared past all of these places at the metro level. Atlanta is becoming an extension of NYC anyway (for black people at least). So once one Jamaican goes down there (or up there) and spreads the word that its streets are flowing with rum and ginger beer, the others follow. That's why the West Indian population has nearly doubled there in less than a decade. It's a hot destination for New Yorkers, Floridians and people coming directly from the Rock.
By way of experience, I remember when Atlanta Carnival used to suck. I mean, pretty much everything about it was a joke. Then it got better one year. And the crowds got larger the next year. And then people started talking about it. The next thing you know, they have a legitimate carnival scene. They need to map out a better route for the road march, but Jouvert gets two thumbs up from me. Jouvert really makes or breaks carnival for me anyway. And anytime you have Caesar's Army running your Jouvert...whoa! That's all I can say. That's Trinidad/Miami/NYC level right there.
Kudos to ATL. I didn't realize how big Carnival got in ATL. Jouvert in ATL is really on that level? Wow. One thing I knew about ATL, was the influx of Haitians that were moving up there and down there in droves, from Florida and the Bosh-Wash corridor. Kudos to Atlanta.
This can't be accurate. I know Atlanta has a descent and visible West Indian population, because they get an influx of transplants from Florida, and NYC/DC/Bos etc. But ATL's already 3rd? I wouldn't be surprised in the the least if ATL was in the top 5, but 3rd? Ahead of Boston?
I agree. Atlanta may have passed DC(I don't know much about DMV) but Boston and Philly!?!? The Dominicans and Haitians outside of those aforementioned metros would not be surpassed within seven years just like that. Plus in regards to Jouvert(Javert), that is typically Anglo-West Indian. A city like Boston does have large amounts of Jamaicans and other english speaking West Indians but it has way more Francophone and Hispanophone. Haitians have thier own parade and so do Ricans and Dominicans. As someone who grew up in the city and suburbs, mostly DOT/ROX/MTPN people go the Festival. I'm pretty sure Cambridge has its own festival as well...
I agree. Atlanta may have passed DC(I don't know much about DMV) but Boston and Philly!?!? The Dominicans and Haitians outside of those aforementioned metros would not be surpassed within seven years just like that.
Dominicans aren't West Indians. The Census does not consider them to be West Indian. If Dominicans wanted to be included in that category, I'm sure they could lobby the Census and a change would be made. I am not aware of any movement in the Dominican-American community to have Dominicans lumped with West Indians.
But yes, Atlanta has surpassed Boston and Philly. I'm not sure why this comes as such a great surprise to some. Atlanta is like a huge vacuum cleaner sucking in black people from every direction. The media narrarive is that Black Americans are leaving New York to "return to their roots." There's truth to this, but it fails to capture an alternative narrative, which is that of West Indians moving along with Black Americans in search of a lower COL and economic opportunities.
Dominicans aren't West Indians. The Census does not consider them to be West Indian. If Dominicans wanted to be included in that category, I'm sure they could lobby the Census and a change would be made. I am not aware of any movement in the Dominican-American community to have Dominicans lumped with West Indians.
But yes, Atlanta has surpassed Boston and Philly. I'm not sure why this comes as such a great surprise to some. Atlanta is like a huge vacuum cleaner sucking in black people from every direction. The media narrarive is that Black Americans are leaving New York to "return to their roots." There's truth to this, but it fails to capture an alternative narrative, which is that of West Indians moving along with them in search of a lower COL and economic opportunities. When a black person leaves NYC, we don't know for sure if that person is the descendant of American slaves, the descendant of Caribbean slaves, or both. We only see that a "black" person has left the NYC metro area.
Most first generation Haitians (especially boomers) balk at being called West Indian. Jamaicans who I grew up with would not consider Haitians West Indian either.
Besides, Dominicans participate in the West Indian festival like every other Caribbean group. Maybe they intergrate with the Black community more up here. Also I don't think they classify all blacks besides Africans(Nigerian, Liberian, Ghanian, etc.) as slave descendants.
Haiti has been free for 200 years, it received immigrants from Africa, Asia, and other parts of the Americas. Not every Black West Indian has slave ancestry.
Most first generation Haitians (especially boomers) balk at being called West Indian. Jamaicans who I grew up with would not consider Haitians West Indian either.
Okay. But the Census calls them West Indians. That's all that matters for the purposes of the Atlanta-Boston-DC comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891
Besides, Dominicans participate in the West Indian festival like every other Caribbean group. Maybe they intergrate with the Black community more up here.
Again, Dominicans are not considered West Indians by the Census. If they feel raw about that, then they could lobby Congress to be included as West Indians. So far, I haven't seen anyone complaining about it, so the designation will likely remain the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891
Also I don't think they classify all blacks besides Africans(Nigerian, Liberian, Ghanian, etc.) as slave descendants.
I never said that. You can technically identify as anything you want on the Census. I could write down "Iraqi/Filipino" and there would be nothing anyone could do to stop me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891
Haiti has been free for 200 years, it received immigrants from Africa, Asia, and other parts of the Americas. Not every Black West Indian has slave ancestry.
Okay. But the Census calls them West Indians. That's all that matters for the purposes of the Atlanta-Boston-DC comparison.
Again, Dominicans are not considered West Indians by the Census. If they feel raw about that, then they could lobby Congress to be included as West Indians. So far, I haven't seen anyone complaining about it, so the designation will likely remain the same.
I never said that. You can technically identify as anything you want on the Census. I could write down "Iraqi/Filipino" and there would be nothing anyone could do to stop me.
What does that have to do with anything?
Initially you said African American or Caribbean slave descendants were moving down South. That was why I mentioned that not all West Indians are descendants of slaves (I.e. the Haiti comment).
As far as Census classification goes, that is subjective. It may not be the majority but not all West Indians specify or even report the census (Illegals & Temporary Residents). We're debating semantics though.
The thread is titled Caribbean Culture and believe or not Dominicans play a part in that Diaspora around here. But I'll back off that.
Can you provide that Census link? I looked for a link that shows the population of ATL's West Indian community, as well as Boston's. The only links I found were from 2010 and ATL isn't mentioned with the top 4 (NY,MIA,Boston,DC). I was wrong about DC initially. ATL might have blown out Philly though (39,000).
Initially you said African American or Caribbean slave descendants were moving down South. That was why I mentioned that not all West Indians are descendants of slaves (I.e. the Haiti comment).
That's not what I said. I said that when a "black" person leaves NYC, we can't tell whether that person is the descendant of American slaves, West Indian slaves, or both. I could have added "neither" but my point was already clear. It's clear, however, that you were sort of primed to launch into a discussion about the many nuances of black identity, which is why you gave a response that was in no real way germane to our conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891
As far as Census classification goes, that is subjective. It may not be the majority but not all West Indians specify or even report the census (Illegals & Temporary Residents). We're debating semantics though.
The actual Census classification is not subjective. It is what it is. The Census is based on self-reporting, and if a Dominican feels strongly enough about it, I don't see what's preventing him or her from writing "West Indian" on a form.
The problem you seem to have is that Dominican does not fall under the "West Indian" category on ACS. And that's really an issue you need to take up with the leaders of the Dominican community. You may want to look up the number for elected representatives from Washington Heights or the South Bronx and voice your concerns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891
Can you provide that Census link? I looked for a link that shows the population of ATL's West Indian community, as well as Boston's. The only links I found were from 2010 and ATL isn't mentioned with the top 4 (NY,MIA,Boston,DC). I was wrong about DC initially. ATL might have blown out Philly though (39,000).
Google American Factfinder ----> Click Advanced Search -----> Click "Show Me All" -----> Type "Atlanta Metro" into the State or County field and hit Enter ------> Choose the Atlanta MSA (and any other MSA you want) -------> In the topic field, type "West Indian" and click "Go" -------> Scroll down to "Total Ancestry Reported" 5 year estimates -----> Click it.
It yields the following totals:
Atlanta - 104,834
Boston - 98,182
DC - 63,329
Philly - 61,605
That's because it doesn't list cities. It lists states. Had you reviewed it carefully, you would have seen the following:
Quote:
Other states with relatively large Caribbean immigrant populations (greater than 65,000) included: New Jersey (253,010, or 7.3 percent), Massachusetts (136,578, or 3.9 percent), Georgia (83,735, or 2.4 percent), Connecticut (78,957, or 2.3 percent), Pennsylvania (77,527, or 2.2 percent), and California (72,251, or 2.1 percent).
And it makes no sense to rely on a document that itself relies on Census data when you can go straight to the source. 2009 was five years ago, bruh.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 01-30-2014 at 06:45 PM..
That's not what I said. I said that when a "black" person leaves NYC, we can't tell whether that person is the descendant of American slaves, West Indian slaves, or both. I could have added "neither" but my point was already clear. It's clear, however, that you were sort of primed to launch into a discussion about the many nuances of black identity, which is why you gave a response that was in no real way germane to our conversation.
You should have said neither. Many people read these threads and you generalizing the Slave thing bothered me. Whatever, you edited it after dude; so I did have a valid concern I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
The problem you seem to have is that Dominican does not fall under the "West Indian" category on ACS. And that's really an issue you need to take up with the leaders of the Dominican community. You may want to look up the number for elected representatives from Washington Heights or the South Bronx and voice your concerns.
You can put whatever you want. The government can't just stick a label on you. But they have a criteria and once you select it, it's "Official". Domincans aren't "West Indians" per se. So aren't Haitians. It's a second generation thing to even use that title amongst Haitian Americans. I don't even need to expound on what "was" considered West Indian back in the '90s. All Dominicans don't live in NYC so I'm not sure why I would contact any NYC politician in regards to that. In addition i'm from Boston, they wouldn't care about my concerns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Google American Factfinder ----> Click Advanced Search -----> Click "Show Me All" -----> Type "Atlanta Metro" into the State or County field and hit Enter ------> Choose the Atlanta MSA (and any other MSA you want) -------> In the topic field, type "West Indian" and click "Go" -------> Scroll down to "Total Ancestry Reported" 5 year estimates -----> Click it.
It yields the following totals:
Atlanta - 104,834
Boston - 98,182
DC - 63,329
Philly - 61,605
Yet using the same link for the Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA Metro Area yielded 105,438 people of West Indian Descent(1-Year Estimate) and 108,912 for Boston-Quincy-Cambridge U.S. Census Bureau, 2012 American Community Survey. It's not cut and dry that Atlanta is now 3rd. 5-Year estimates are great, but I'd rather use the data that is closest to the year the data was reported. Especially if we're comparing sets of data that include close numbers. Prior to 2013 Boston was experiencing a loss of population. The estimates can and will probably change within 5 years.
You should have said neither. Many people read these threads and you generalizing the Slave thing bothered me. Whatever, you edited it after dude; so I did have a valid concern I guess.
It didn't matter what I said because whether West Indians are the descendants of slaves or not had nothing to do with the point I was making.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891
Yet using the same link for the Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA Metro Area yielded 105,438 people of West Indian Descent(1-Year Estimate) and 108,912 for Boston-Quincy-Cambridge U.S. Census Bureau, 2012 American Community Survey. It's not cut and dry that Atlanta is now 3rd. 5-Year estimates are great, but I'd rather use the data that is closest to the year the data was reported. Especially if we're comparing sets of data that include close numbers. Prior to 2013 Boston was experiencing a loss of population. The estimates can and will probably change within 5 years.
There are upsides and downsides to using the 1-year, 3-year, and 5-year estimates. I tend to use the 5-year estimates because the sample sizes are larger thereby making the results more reliable.
At the end of the day, the difference between the two is not large (for now). But the difference between Atlanta and Boston is that the West Indian population in the former is growing at a significantly faster rate. The trend clearly favors Atlanta. Here are their respective West Indian populations in 2007.
Atlanta - 73,070
Boston - 91,232
In a mere 7 years, Atlanta has powered right past Boston. And it will continue to pull away from Boston, DC and Philly as West Indians continue to migrate from NYC and also from Florida. Sorry.
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