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However, I'll take exception to some of the comments about Lakewood. Note especially the apparently very different characters of Lakewood and Royal Oak. Lakewood is highly integrated into Cleveland and is one of the very most densely populated cities between New York and Chicago, even much more densely populated than the city of Cleveland.
1) Edgewater Park, since being taken over by the Cleveland Metroparks a few years ago, is a quite stellar park. It is a 147 acres of prime real estate with a good beach, excellent views, and an upper park with awesome views of Cleveland's downtown skyline. It hosts many well-attended events in the summer. Edgewater is connected by direct bus service, as well as the new Cleveland State bus rapid.
The Cleveland Metroparks are actually an acclaimed Cuyahoga County (of which Lakewood is part) system of over 21,000 acres of largely nature preserves and nicknamed the "Emerald Necklace."
Adjacent to Edgewater are a couple marinas and also Wendy Park, which offers superlative views of the Cleveland Harbor, Cleveland skyline and the Cuyahoga River, and is the focus of much investment, including a bike/hiking path to connect the Cuyahoga National Park to Lake Erie.
2) Edgewater Park is in Cleveland, but immediately adjacent to Lakewood and well connected to Lakewood by mass transit. Serving Lakewood more directly is the 31-acre Lakewood Park, although its steep cliff doesn't allow a beach. It is an excellent park with robust recreational amenities and the new Lakefront Promenade.
3) Lakewood also benefits from the excellent 2,600-acre Rocky River Reservation, part of which is in Lakewood, of the Cleveland Metroparks system. The reservation has a good nature center, bridle trails and a stable, among many other amenities.
Lakewood residents easily can rent kayaks to explore the Rocky River, Cuyahoga River, Cleveland Harbor (an international port), or Lake Erie.
Of course, Lake Erie supports a large recreational boating culture, easily available to Lakewood residents due to surrounding marinas, and Lakewood properties and restaurants (such as the acclaimed Pier W) have boating docks.
4) Lakewood is 18 minutes (10 miles) from the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo, one of the better zoos in the U.S.
5) Lakewood is well integrated into Cleveland, offering easy access to Cleveland's downtown sporting venues and entertainment/dining districts (which do compete with Lakewood's local restaurants and entertainment offerings. Bus lines as well as the new Cleveland State bus rapid serve Lakewood and connect it with downtown Cleveland.
From Cleveland's Public Square (16 minutes or 7 miles from Lakewood), Lakewood residents can take the 24/7 Healthline bus rapid or the Red Line rail rapid to University Circle, one of the great cultural, educational, and health centers in the U.S. The Cleveland Museum of Art in many ways, especially its physical facilities and Asian art collections, is more stellar than the Detroit Institute of Arts Museum (both are among the best art museums in the U.S.), but Detroit has nothing to compare to the world-renown Cleveland Orchestra and Severance Hall.
Downtown Cleveland offers PlayhouseSquare, one of the best unified theater districts in the U.S. From Public Square, PlayhouseSquare can be reached either by the Healthline bus rapid or free downtown bus trolleys.
Lakewood is even closer (12 minutes) to Cleveland's Market District, featuring the acclaimed West Side Market and great breweries/pubs, and the Gordon Square Arts District, 3.7 miles from Lakewood and featuring good restaurants, public theater, and Cleveland's largest artist studio center.
6) Although Lakewood very much resembles an integrated neighborhood of Cleveland, it also offers superior cultural amenities of its own, most notably its excellent public library and the acclaimed Beck Center.
Even though Lakewood is very close to major entertainment districts in Cleveland (especially downtown and East and West Flats), it has its own nightlife.
Just a couple of the entertainment venues, both in the East Flats of Cleveland and apart from the likes of PlayhouseSquare and Quicken Loans Arena, within 15 minutes and about 6 miles of Lakewood.
7) Lakewood has a very good restaurant scene, but it is in direct competition with other nearby restaurant centers, including the acclaimed Cleveland downtown restaurants. It was the home of the first Melt Bar & Grilled, a favorite of the cable food channels. Pier W is considered the best lakefront restaurant in Greater Cleveland, with a great Sunday brunch and views of Lake Erie and the Cleveland skyline.
Melt is headquartered in Lakewood, as is the Aladdin's Eatery chain.
8) Lakewood offers a wide range of housing, but relatively affordable compared to other similar locations in the U.S. Condos on Lakewood's Gold Coast are especially inexpensive, partly because of their relatively great number and the booming growth of Cleveland's downtown population and residential living options and of Ohio City, located just across the Cuyahoga River from downtown Cleveland, as a more convenient alternative to Lakewood.
A population density of 7,500 per square mile isn't that much different than 5,000 per square mile when it comes to lifestyle. If we're talking 20,000 per square mile vs. 5,000 I could see this being a factor, but as it is now even the 50% difference has more to do with the large amounts of green space within the city limits of Royal Oak (Red Run golf course, Oakview cemetery, Detroit Zoo, Wagner Park) than it does urban planning, as nearly all green space in Lakewood is neighborhood parks and larger green spaces along the border are technically in Cleveland, as you point out in your next 3 points.
The major difference in urban planning is in their central commercial areas, where Royal Oak is setup more as an independent city, with a highly-walkable core old-timey "Downtown" area which then later became part of Detroit as the metro grew - kind of like is you plopped Akron right in the middle of the Cleveland metro area. Lakewood is planned in more of of the car-centric "Downtown" strip plan where two streets (Madison and Detroit) have all of the commercial establishments running from end to end - similar to the layouts of Grosse Pointes.
I believe affordability is a big draw to any of the gentrified parts of Midwestern metros. What you get in either town for the price is unheard of in most of the nation. In either town you get high quality schools, low unemployment, gentrified commercial districts, and proximity to big-city amenities like major league sports, museums, zoos, and shopping. I will say one area where I believe Royal Oak has a distinct advantage is income. Royal Oak has a median household income of $68,256, vs. Lakewood which has a median household income of $46,546; however, Royal Oak is also more expensive to live in than Lakewood with average property values of $202,000 vs. $134,000. And based on having recently shopped for homes in Royal Oak, I can assure you that the average property value is most definitely not $202,000 - I'd estimate it to be more in the $300,000 range, but having just done a quick scan of Lakewood, it appears a typical home there now sells for about $175,000 - but hey, this is a good thing right? It means the Midwest is cool again?
Seriously, rather than comparing these two cities to each other - I think they should be compared to their coastal counterparts like Bethesda, MD, Hempstead, NY or Pasadena, CA - where you'd need to earn $150,000 to have the same quality of life that you could have in Royal Oak or Lakewood for $70,000 a year. Are the coastal counterparts nicer? In some ways, yes, but they are unattainable for your typical family and for those who can afford they they almost certainly require two incomes - where any college graduate can afford the two Midwestern towns off one income, or live a life of relative privilege off two.
A population density of 7,500 per square mile isn't that much different than 5,000 per square mile when it comes to lifestyle.
According to the Wikipedia article, the density of Lakewood is 9,427/sq mile vs. 4,855/sq. mile for Royal Oak, almost twice as much. Despite your efforts to equivocate about the difference, this is a meaningful difference, probably reflecting Lakewood's densely packed, high-rise Gold Coast as much as anything. E.g., Lakewood apparently has a robust mass transit foot print compared to Royal Oak, resulting in meaningful differences in lifestyles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie
If we're talking 20,000 per square mile vs. 5,000 I could see this being a factor, but as it is now even the 50% difference has more to do with the large amounts of green space within the city limits of Royal Oak (Red Run golf course, Oakview cemetery, Detroit Zoo, Wagner Park) than it does urban planning, as nearly all green space in Lakewood is neighborhood parks.
Royal Oak has almost twice the land area of Lakewood. Speculating about the percentage of each city that is in open areas is ridiculous, because it likely doesn't account for much of the density difference, let alone 50 percent of the difference as claimed by you, especially given the presence of the likes of Lakewood Park and the Rocky River Reservation in Lakewood.
Lakewood Park is a municipal park and Rocky River Reservation is a county park. And actually, green space in neighborhood parks affects density every bit as much as does a cemetery or a zoo, and is actually more valuable green space.
You are simply guessing with this argument despite your factual assertion, which I suspect is grossly inaccurate.
Seriously, rather than comparing these two cities to each other - I think they should be compared to their coastal counterparts like Bethesda, MD, Hempstead, NY or Pasadena, CA - where you'd need to earn $150,000 to have the same quality of life that you could have in Royal Oak or Lakewood for $70,000 a year. Are the coastal counterparts nicer? In some ways, yes, but they are unattainable for your typical family and for those who can afford they they almost certainly require two incomes - where any college graduate can afford the two Midwestern towns off one income, or live a life of relative privilege off two.
I think of Lakewood as pretty similar (in many, but not all) ways to Somerville, MA. Not a "subruban" suburb but actually containing some of the best city life in the region. Attractive to young people as well as families. Lots going on. Located just slightly outside the dominant city. However, look at this:
According to the Wikipedia article, the density of Lakewood is 9,427/sq mile vs. 4,855/sq. mile for Royal Oak, almost twice as much. Despite your efforts to equivocate about the difference, this is a meaningful difference, probably reflecting Lakewood's densely packed, high-rise Gold Coast as much as anything. E.g., Lakewood apparently has a robust mass transit foot print compared to Royal Oak, resulting in meaningful differences in lifestyles.
59,008 people/11.79 sq.mi.= 5,004 people per square mile
50,656 people/6.69 sq.mi.= 7,571 people per square mile
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Royal Oak has almost twice the land area of Lakewood. Speculating about the percentage of each city that is in open areas is ridiculous, because it likely doesn't account for much of the density difference, let alone 50 percent of the difference as claimed by you, especially given the presence of the likes of Lakewood Park and the Rocky River Reservation in Lakewood.
Lakewood Park is a municipal park and Rocky River Reservation is a county park. And actually, green space in neighborhood parks affects density every bit as much as does a cemetery or a zoo, and is actually more valuable green space.
You are simply guessing with this argument despite your factual assertion, which I suspect is grossly inaccurate.
It sounds like somebody needs a tickle party... But since I can tell you need to hear this: You're right. The aggregation of 50 neighborhood parks, 2 reserves, the golf course, the cemetery, and the portion of the zoo within city limits come out to roughly about 1.4 square miles of green space, which would still indicate a lower population density, though certainly not a significantly different lifestyle as we're comparing two moderately dense inner-ring suburbs, not downtown core to inner-ring suburb or inner-ring suburb to outer-ring sprawl, but yes - Lakewood has a high density of population, especially by Midwestern standards. It is nearly as dense as Hamtramck (10,700/sq.mi), which I will admit does have a different feel than Royal Oak, largely due to the lack of driveways between homes and nearly complete lack of green space; however, Hamtramck isn't exactly gentrified as the other two, but I like its chances over the next decade or two
I think of Lakewood as pretty similar (in many, but not all) ways to Somerville, MA. Not a "subruban" suburb but actually containing some of the best city life in the region. Attractive to young people as well as families. Lots going on. Located just slightly outside the dominant city. However, look at this:
So the median income in Lakewood about 30% of the cost of the median home.
In Somerville, that stat would be 8%. So Lakewood is basically 3-4 times more affordable than Somerville.
The Midwest is waiting to be discovered by miserable coasties.
Exactly! This is what I've been trying to tell friends/family who live in LA when they roll their eyes at my Midwestern..ness.., but yikes - you try and convince someone that moving to moderately upscale parts of suburban Cleveland or Detroit is a financially smart thing to do and see how hard they roll their eyes to that. Compare Royal Oak where median household income is actually about 30% higher($68,256) than it is in Somerville, and then things really start to look confusing. And the thing is, this real estate comparison isn't even taking into account how much it costs me to go out to eat or find recreation. I can go out for fancy-pants patio dining with my wife, get an appetizer to share and each get a cocktail and main course, and we'll spend $40-45 including a 20% tip. Our family's annual zoo membership? $60. Annual art museum membership? Included with taxes. Decent tickets to a Tigers game? $25/each. If I want to take the kids? Tickets to a minor-leaugh Utica Unicorns game run me $7.
Last edited by Geo-Aggie; 03-21-2017 at 01:07 PM..
This may have been covered, but why are the residential blocks so long in Lakewood? The blocks south of Detroit Rd., and west of Hilliard should have a street bisecting them. Why wasn't Franklin ever extended through the neighborhood? Seems weird.
This may have been covered, but why are the residential blocks so long in Lakewood? The blocks south of Detroit Rd., and west of Hilliard should have a street bisecting them. Why wasn't Franklin ever extended through the neighborhood? Seems weird.
I couldn't agree with you more. It's the one thing that I don't like about Lakewood. Taking a walk around the block can take 45 minutes. That and the fact that the street names are different on opposite sides of Detroit.
It was very confusing when I first moved here and was trying to look for the street I got on the bus to get off again on the return trip.
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Home values
But since I can tell you need to hear this: You're right. The aggregation of 50 neighborhood parks, 2 reserves, the golf course, the cemetery, and the portion of the zoo within city limits come out to roughly about 1.4 square miles of green space, which would still indicate a lower population density, though certainly not a significantly different lifestyle as we're comparing two moderately dense inner-ring suburbs, not downtown core to inner-ring suburb or inner-ring suburb to outer-ring sprawl, but yes - Lakewood has a high density of population, especially by Midwestern standards. It is nearly as dense as Hamtramck (10,700/sq.mi), which I will admit does have a different feel than Royal Oak, largely due to the lack of driveways between homes and nearly complete lack of green space; however, Hamtramck isn't exactly gentrified as the other two, but I like its chances over the next decade or two 
