Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Do you think people who live in Staten Island or Eastern Queens have a car as a luxury?
Yea, for some people. Staten Island and Eastern Queens are pretty large and parts of them have mass transit service that's better than most of the US including most of LA currently.
The difference is that people talk of car ownership only as a means of getting to work. If that was the case then public transportation in NYC is better and there should be no discussion. However the difference is that even if I didn't need a car in LA to work, I would still want one. LA has the beaches, mountains and quite a large urban area in which there are multiple places in farther locations worth seeing. I also live in a state with multiple beautiful national parks and scenic areas that are quite amazing. If I lived in NYC, and the way that people talk about it is that it's all about the city, all about Broadway, all about Manhattan and the other Burroughs. Not to much thought is given about venturing out, so why own a car if that's the vast majority of the value of the place is in living in the heart of the city?
I'll reiterate my point (and I believe a few other NYers shared) that while I certainly don't need a car as I don't use it to commute to work, but I do choose to have one for many of the same reasons that you mention above. To be sure, there is more of a focus on urban recreation here than anywhere else in this country, but that isn't to say there's not much to see within 1-2 hours of driving. I actually find that there is a lot of fun car trips to be had - Beaches (NJ, LI/Hamptons), Catskills, New England Coast, the other Bos-Wash cities, etc.) And to be clear, these are certainly not as scenic as the areas around LA, but few places are. I'm happy with the daytrip choices that we have (particularly after my spent in Texas, which there were really none except for Austin.)
While before I had young children I would spend most of my free time in the city, I now find myself being in the city for work and an occasional date night (or afternoon out in the park/museums with the kids), but use my car much more frequently for city breaks. I guess it changes with life stages. But while I only use the car every other week or so, I wouldn't give it up at this point.
I'll chime in as an LA native that has only visited NYC. This seems to largely have morphed into the question of, "Is car ownership worth it" in some sense. Despite constant howling to the contrary, I think that LA is one of the best places in the world for car ownership as it gives quite a bit of value if you actually get out.
The difference is that people talk of car ownership only as a means of getting to work. If that was the case then public transportation in NYC is better and there should be no discussion. However the difference is that even if I didn't need a car in LA to work, I would still want one. LA has the beaches, mountains and quite a large urban area in which there are multiple places in farther locations worth seeing. I also live in a state with multiple beautiful national parks and scenic areas that are quite amazing. If I lived in NYC, and the way that people talk about it is that it's all about the city, all about Broadway, all about Manhattan and the other Burroughs. Not to much thought is given about venturing out, so why own a car if that's the vast majority of the value of the place is in living in the heart of the city?
So the value of living in great weather with places to go is worth the extra amount of money you spend on transportation. Outside of that I don't think my life would be substantially better in NYC in any other measurable way. We still have theaters and arts etc. Maybe you could make an argument that some facet would be better here or there in the arts etc. But losing the great outdoors is a massive QOL downgrade for me. I pick LA
While I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong, you've basically highlighted the fact that car ownership is more or less required in LA for most daily activities. Very few are lucky enough to live around good public transit to/from work and the areas they like to frequent with their friends. In order to explore LA, you likely will need a car to do so.
OTOH, to explore NYC, a car is more of a burden than anything else. So, we don't own cars usually. That allows us to make up for the apartment price differences, and likely still have money leftover when eliminating all car ownership/maintenance costs.
Lots of people want to mention that car ownership allows them to get outside the city and into nature more. Well, if it's beaches you want, trains go to numerous beaches in LI and NJ, and even the subways go straight to the beaches within NYC itself. Then, for the few times someone wishes to venture into the mountains to go hiking or something like that, ZipCars are popular here, rental cars still exist, and car-sharing apps like Turo are available as well. The few times someone would rent a car in any way would not equate to the cost of ownership/maintenance of a car, but it still allows you to experience the same things you say you'd miss about not owning a car in LA.
And, a lot of public transit options still exist to the smaller towns. You can take Metro North to numerous quaint Hudson Valley towns for a quiet weekend out of the city. Amtrak can take you even further up the Hudson Valley and into Upstate NY. NJT Rail takes you about half way down the shore, and then stops. But there are NJT buses that pick up in NYC and head straight to Atlantic City so you don't have to drive there. There are buses from NYC to Hunter Mountain and Blue Mountain for skiing/snowboarding, and I'm sure there are other bus lines that serve other ski resort areas. Amtrak gets you very close to Stowe (Waterbury Station).
If you're trying to go extremely remote around NYC, yeah, you'll need a car. But again, you can rent one for cheaper than the cost of owning/maintaining one year-round for the few days per year where you can't access a destination via public transit. For almost every other day of the year, a car is not required in NYC.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
7,409 posts, read 6,545,347 times
Reputation: 6682
Curious...how much $$ do you average/month on subway, Uber, taxi, car rental, train ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431
While I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong, you've basically highlighted the fact that car ownership is more or less required in LA for most daily activities. Very few are lucky enough to live around good public transit to/from work and the areas they like to frequent with their friends. In order to explore LA, you likely will need a car to do so.
OTOH, to explore NYC, a car is more of a burden than anything else. So, we don't own cars usually. That allows us to make up for the apartment price differences, and likely still have money leftover when eliminating all car ownership/maintenance costs.
Lots of people want to mention that car ownership allows them to get outside the city and into nature more. Well, if it's beaches you want, trains go to numerous beaches in LI and NJ, and even the subways go straight to the beaches within NYC itself. Then, for the few times someone wishes to venture into the mountains to go hiking or something like that, ZipCars are popular here, rental cars still exist, and car-sharing apps like Turo are available as well. The few times someone would rent a car in any way would not equate to the cost of ownership/maintenance of a car, but it still allows you to experience the same things you say you'd miss about not owning a car in LA.
And, a lot of public transit options still exist to the smaller towns. You can take Metro North to numerous quaint Hudson Valley towns for a quiet weekend out of the city. Amtrak can take you even further up the Hudson Valley and into Upstate NY. NJT Rail takes you about half way down the shore, and then stops. But there are NJT buses that pick up in NYC and head straight to Atlantic City so you don't have to drive there. There are buses from NYC to Hunter Mountain and Blue Mountain for skiing/snowboarding, and I'm sure there are other bus lines that serve other ski resort areas. Amtrak gets you very close to Stowe (Waterbury Station).
If you're trying to go extremely remote around NYC, yeah, you'll need a car. But again, you can rent one for cheaper than the cost of owning/maintaining one year-round for the few days per year where you can't access a destination via public transit. For almost every other day of the year, a car is not required in NYC.
Curious...how much $$ do you average/month on subway, Uber, taxi, car rental, train ??
A subway monthly pass is $127/mo. I take maybe 2 Lyfts per month max. Usually no more than $20 each way. So maximum right there of $167/mo. I only take commuter trains when I'm going somewhere like the shore. Round trip from NYP to Asbury Park is $32.50. Say you go to the shore 3 times in the summer, since you can also get to Coney with just a simple swipe of your monthly pass so you'll likely go there more often and don't need to always head to Asbury. That's $97.50 in NJT to get to the Shore.
So:
12 months of subway passes
2 Lyft rides per month
3 Shore trips per year
That totals $2,101.5. A per month break down is $175.13.
That means my monthly break down transportation costs is equal to the cheapest possible vehicle payments, which usually still require a down payment of at least a couple hundred dollars, if not a couple thousand dollars. Then add in gas, parking, insurance, repairs, maintenance, and in LA where you can't take public transit home after the bars and you don't want to drive drunk you have to pay for more Lyfts than I do since I take the subway home.
This isn't entirely exactly accurate for me, though, since I live in Jersey City and am required to own a car for work. This is more for someone like me who lives in the city and doesn't own a vehicle. But if I didn't have to own a car, the only thing that would change for me being in Jersey City adding a PATH pass to that equation. My total would be $3,373.5 because a PATH monthly pass is $106/mo. That equates to $281.13/mo. That's about what a cheap car payment + gas costs per month. Still comes out cheaper, since this doesn't include insurance, parking, repairs, maintenance, and having to take more Lyfts home from bars or risk DUIs.
Insurance is about $150/mo. Gas is about $125/mo. Say you have to pay $5/day for parking at work and there are 261 working days per year but you take 10 of those off there are 251 and that makes parking $1,255/year so $104.58/mo.
The LA couple is paying $28,896/yr (29% of income) for their 2 bedroom apartment. The NYC couple is paying $34,944/yr (31.5% of income) for their 1 bedroom apartment. But, if the LA couple owns two cars, let's see the difference. They have two car payments of $200/each, $125 on gas each, $150 on insurance each. $105 on parking each. That means $6,960/yr extra on top of rent. So that equates to $35,856/yr (36.1% of income). For the MTA passes, 2 Lyfts each, and 3 shore trips each, the NYC couple is paying an extra $4,203.12/yr. That equates to $39,147/yr (35.3% of income). Now, remember the LA couple still has the costs of car repairs, car maintenance, taking Lyfts when they go out drinking, parking their car when they go to restaurants, parking at the beach, parking at the mall. So, already it's cheaper to live in NYC, but then you have to consider the potential extra thousands of dollars that could be spent on car maintenance/repairs, plus the guaranteed hundreds of dollars per year extra spent on parking when they go somewhere.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
7,409 posts, read 6,545,347 times
Reputation: 6682
Unless I missed it buried in an earlier post I have not seen a comparison of taxes....been a few years since I lived in CA (and I’m too comfortable on the couch now as I’m typing to get up and look) but I seem to recall being taxed between 8-10% by the state...NYC has state and city tax, no?
Aside from that I would see myself needing to take 1 or 2 more warm weather winter vacations living in Manhattan than if I lived in LA from Dec 1 - April 1. I am too old for a shared summer house in the Hamptons or Jersey Shore but most of my friends who lived in NYC made that an annual part, and added expense, of their lives through their 30’s.
Interesting debate. I’m considering dumping my car in Miami in 3 years for similar reasons used by NY’ers—assuming I stay put long term. For comparative purposes and following discussions with friends in CA and NYC, my furnished $3300 32nd floor, city/ water view condo would run $4800 in LA (plus state taxes and car) and $5200-5500 in Manhattan (plus city and state taxes). I guess in an ideal world one would live in NYC half the year and LA (or elsewhere /FL 6 months + 1 day for tax purposes). I might consider the latter option down the road if I ditch the car.
Last edited by elchevere; 12-14-2019 at 03:35 PM..
Unless I missed it buried in an earlier post I have not seen a comparison of taxes....been a few years since I lived in CA (and I’m too comfortable on the couch now as I’m typing to get up and look) but I seem to recall being taxed between 8-10% by the state...NYC has state and city tax, no?
Aside from that I would see myself needing to take 1 or 2 more warm weather winter vacations living in Manhattan than if I lived in LA from Dec 1 - April 1. I am too old for a shared summer house in the Hamptons or Jersey Shore but most of my friends who lived in NYC made that an annual part, and added expense, of their lives through their 30’s.
Interesting debate. I’m considering dumping my car in Miami in 3 years for similar reasons used by NY’ers—assuming I stay put long term. For comparative purposes and following discussions with friends in CA and NYC, my furnished $3300 32nd floor, city/ water view condo would run $4800 in LA (plus state taxes and car) and $5200-5500 in Manhattan (plus city and state taxes). I guess in an ideal world one would live in NYC half the year and LA (or elsewhere /FL 6 months + 1 day for tax purposes). I might consider the latter option down the road if I ditch the car.
Before considering extra withholdings and pre-tax deductions and all:
NYC avg household income is $110,849, so let's assume $55,424 for each partner. Disregarding all extra withholdings and deductions, that gives each a $42,432 net income. That's $84,864 per year total. That's 76.56% take home.
LA avg household income is $99,303, so let's assume $49,651 for each partner. Disregarding all extra withholdings and deductions, that gives each a $40,872 net income. That's $81,744 per year total. That's 82.32% take home.
NYC couple is spending $39,147/yr, or 46.26% of their income.
LA couple is spending $35,856/yr, or 43.86% of their income.
So with taxes, yes, the LA couple is paying less of their income to basic cost needs. However, the thing people always seem to forget is how expensive maintaining a car is. Also, a car payment of $200/mo each is quite low. The $125 on gas could be more if you're living very far from work because you can't afford to live near your office. Insurance can be way more depending on your car and your driving record. Fixing and maintaining the car can cost hundreds or thousands per year. Paying for parking when going places costs money. If the couple is responsible and doesn't drink and drive, they'll be taking more Lyfts and Ubers home than the NYC couple who can simply hop on a subway to get home.
Now, if you choose to live in DTLA or a nearby neighborhood with good public transit and plan to use LAMTA for most needs, but take Lyfts more often than someone in NYC would because the public transit just simply can't compete, LA probably is the better financial choice. There is definitely room in the budget between NYC and LA COL that allows for quite a few more Lyft rides in LA to make up for the lack of car ownership.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
7,409 posts, read 6,545,347 times
Reputation: 6682
In LA your car defines who you are for many so I agree $200/mo is quite low—plus registration, insurance, gas, maintenance, etc
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
