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DT Richmond to Old Town Petersburg is 24.4 miles. DT Durham to the State Capitol is 24.7 miles. Pretty much equal. The difference is like 90% of Petersburg residents have to come to Richmond or Chesterfield for work. Time-wise its also a far quicker trip in Richmond. From what I understand, the criteria are based on commuters so this would make sense. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Nort...5000!3e0?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/dir/The+...5000!3e0?hl=en
Nope. Go to the shortest distance between the cities by car.
The most direct route is US70. It's slightly shorter like I said. I did my homework. I also did the measurement tool on google maps between the cores of both pairs of cities.
The reason why it's quicker to get from Petersburg to Richmond is that there's less development between them, while Raleigh and Durham have much more development between them. So, more development between two cites means 2 MSAs while less means 1? okay....
For other cities, I'm not sure. I was just speaking to the Richmond area. It makes sense to me in Richmond's case as there are virtually zero jobs in Petersburg so naturally, they are going to have to come to Richmond for work. We were actually discussing the lack of jobs in Petersburg in the Richmond forum earlier this week.
Yeah, but even still metro Richmond is huge, covering nearly 100 miles from one side to the other. In the meantime Durham and Raleigh touch each other and are put in different metros for arbitrary reasons.
Nope. Go to the shortest distance between the cities by car.
The most direct route is US70. It's slightly shorter like I said. I did my homework. I also did the measurement tool on google maps between the cores of both pairs of cities.
The reason why it's quicker to get from Petersburg to Richmond is that there's less development between them, while Raleigh and Durham have much more development between them. So, more development between two cites means 2 MSAs while less means 1? okay....
Sorry, 24.1 miles vs 24.4 miles? Still pretty much the same. None of that really changes the fact that a higher percentage of people from Petersburg work in Richmond than people from Durham work in Raleigh. I'm not sure why that has you miffed. It goes without saying that more people live between Durham and Raleigh then live between Richmond and Peterburg as everyone knows that metro Richmond grew and grows from east to west(Petersburg is south of Richmond). Also, if we were to argue semantics, I can technically get Richmond's distance to Petersburg, DT to DT down to about 21 miles lol(maybe even less). https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.5...!4m1!3e0?hl=en
I'm not sure it matters either way as my initial point was that a higher percentage of Petersburg residents have to come to Richmond and Chester for work, no one has disputed that so far, at all. You said that you didn't see how Petersburg can be apart of Richmond's MSA, I explained how. It's cause it couldn't exist in 2020 if Richmond were to disappear. You can't say the same thing about Durham/Raleigh. Do I think they should be the same MSA, yes...I'm from Wilson lol. I just gave one reason why they are not, in the context of being compared to Richmond.
Yeah, but even still metro Richmond is huge, covering nearly 100 miles from one side to the other. In the meantime Durham and Raleigh touch each other and are put in different metros for arbitrary reasons.
You all are arguing things I never stated. I made one point and it was that Petersburg depends on Richmond for jobs. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, its 85 miles from the bottom of Johnston County to the top of Franklin County and that is just in the Raleigh side of the area. I shouldn't even have to know that but yall are dead set on the semantics game lol. I've agreed that they should be one MSA on this site more than once. I simply gave one reason why they aren't. Unless you all are going to tell me a high percentage of Petersburg residents don't have to come to Richmond for work, I'm not sure what all the buts are for.
You all are arguing things I never stated. I made one point and it was that Petersburg depends on Richmond for jobs. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, its 85 miles from the bottom of Johnston County to the top of Franklin County and that is just in the Raleigh side of the area. I shouldn't even have to know that but yall are dead set on the semantics game lol. I've agreed that they should be one MSA on this site more than once. I simply gave one reason why they aren't. Unless you all are going to tell me a high percentage of Petersburg residents don't have to come to Richmond for work, I'm not sure what all the buts are for.
I wasn’t specifically questioning your point about Petersburg residents going to Richmond for work. I was mostly saying the larger point is that most metro areas sprawl out far from their geographical and demographical center, whereas Raleigh/Durham’s is cut in half. It’s a bizarre situation that can’t be completely explained by commuting patterns.
I wasn’t specifically questioning your point about Petersburg residents going to Richmond for work. I was mostly saying the larger point is that most metro areas sprawl out far from their geographical and demographical center, whereas Raleigh/Durham’s is cut in half. It’s a bizarre situation that can’t be completely explained by commuting patterns.
Gotcha. I would definitely like to better understand the split past just commuter patterns.
The second I put misunderstanding/acknowledgement in my post, I knew someone would reply. Thanks for not disappointing me.
There are other multi-core MSAs like Miami/FtLauderdale/West Palm Beach & Dallas-Forth Worth, that are unified. I would like to see the criteria that these places meet that the Triangle doesn't.
Well in the case of DFW, Dallas and Fort Worth each have their own metropolitan divisions (which can only exist within MSAs of at least 3M I believe) within the MSA, so there's a level of separation there. But it's easy to see why it's still one MSA when you consider the highly decentralized nature of the Metroplex with several suburbs between Dallas and Fort Worth having populations of 100K+ and their own significant job bases. There just appears to be a much greater level of regional cross-commuting in more directions in DFW that ultimately keeps the region as a singular MSA under the current criteria. I'm much less familiar with South Florida but I will say that I'm surprised that there's not a similar setup like DFW with the MSA consisting of at least two metropolitan divisions.
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Adding to your post, it's notable that RTP spans both MSAs in the Triangle, with the more recent growth in RTP happening in Wake County. So, like me, Wake commuters to RTP are more likely to stay in Wake County than they were previously.
I suspect that when Wake County was much, much smaller, and a higher % of occupied RTP was Durham County based, there was likely a larger share of commuters from Raleigh's current MSA to the Durham side of RTP. RTP's relative influence as a job center has diminished as a % over the decades as Wake County, in particular, has exploded in population. For reference, here are the county numbers for Wake by decade for the last 40 years:
1980: 301,327
1990: 423,380
2000: 627,846
2010: 900,993
2018: 1,092,305
RTP's employment has not grown on a similar trajectory, though there are RTP adjacent companies in both Durham and Wake Counties that have sprung up over the decades.
Good points. In any case, we can see the impact of the world's largest research park that doesn't contain a resident population (yet) in this situation. The best word to describe the two MSA situation in the Triangle right now is "fluke" IMO.
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Lastly, it will be interesting to see what happens to the urbanized area regardless of the MSAs. A source that I follow from Europe unified Raleigh's and Durham's UAs recently, based on their contiguous density metric of ppl/km2. This is no easy feat to accomplish in the Triangle because where the two cities meet, there are all sorts of road blocks that don't house people including RTP & RDU Airport near the middle, Falls Lake and its watershed to the north and Jordan Lake and its watershed to the south. Nonetheless, the suburban development between Raleigh and Durham continues to fill in the available holes with more people.
The only thing with that is the OMB only provides for the merging of individual UAs in very rare cases. Right now you can look at a map of UAs in different places and see how some suburban UAs are obviously an integral part of the UA of the primary city but are considered separate while other suburban fringes are part and parcel of the primary UA. So from the OMB's perspective as of the criteria in place currently, the UAs of Raleigh and Durham will continue to be separate despite how much they bump up against each other.
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When you look at Raleigh and Durham, and the distance, development, and synergy between them, there's much more and they are actually a bit closer together (core to core by the straightest path of travel) than Richmond and Petersburg, yet Richmond and Petersburg are in one MSA. That comparison alone makes me question the criteria that the OMB uses to designate MSAs.
Well VA has that independent city thing going on so that doesn't really make Richmond-Petersburg a "standard" example to use. Plus in that case, I think it's clear that Petersburg is the more dependent city without a substantial employment base compared to Richmond.
Looking at that commuting link, Rowan County has the weakest tie to Mecklenburg inside the Charlotte Metro (at least in NC). Both Wake-to-Durham and vice versa have a higher rate of commuting. Actually, as far as I can tell, no two counties in the state have more commuters between themselves as a percentage of workers as Wake/Durham. Around 12% of the workforce goes one way or the other.
Looking at that commuting link, Rowan County has the weakest tie to Mecklenburg inside the Charlotte Metro (at least in NC). Both Wake-to-Durham and vice versa have a higher rate of commuting. Actually, as far as I can tell, no two counties in the state have more commuters between themselves as a percentage of workers as Wake/Durham. Around 12% of the workforce goes one way or the other.
Fair points.
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