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Having spent a lot of time in both cities, I think it's pure East Coast bias that someone would try and argue Philly is somehow more urban than SF.
Outside of downtown, its not even close. SF wins by a pretty good margin. Philly has huge surface lots, random empty fields, significant abandoned stretches, a number of wide roads with somewhat sparse development. San Francisco is wall-to-wall urbanity from Castro to North Beach.
Honestly, just go to google maps and choose random spots on both cities. In SF you'll likley find a crammed urban space. In Philly, you may find an abandoned broad road with some sparse brick buildings, a parking lot, and an open field. The urban fabric in Philly is much, much less consistant.
LOL , future wise Philly is expected to become very dense. This is mostly do to the other Rail connections to NYC and DC planned and the fact the Philly is cheaper to live in. So most of those lots will be built on over the next 20 years and most of those Abandoned warehouses will be cleaned up or gone aswell.... Transit wise Philly has alot more planned and can handle faster growth as opposed to SF....which doesn't have An East-West Subway..
Haha, yeah I know especially since the first street is located in a zip code that has a population density over 30,000 people per square mile. Talk about cherry picking. Here is three links of residential blocks right around those cherry picked streets to give you a sense how really dense/urban those areas that he selected are
the first one philadelphia, pa - Google Maps
the second one philadelphia, pa - Google Maps
And the third one philadelphia, pa - Google Maps
are we playing the "show pictures of dilapidated philly hoods and views from the projects with the intent to establish that because of these eyesores the entirety of Philadelphia is discredited" game again? Because I have to warn you, those who play this game don't end up looking very bright.
Philadelphia has a population of over 1.6 million people, it's the fifth largest city in America. However it used to have a population of over 2 million. The city was hit hard after it lost the textile industry and many other blue collar jobs in the 60s. Houses were abandoned, many were demolished as they fell into neglect. If you travel into the hoods of philly you will see abandoned houses and vacant lots. It isn't the 70s anymore and philly is once again on the upswing but we're not talking about the future. we're talking about now, and right now those abandoned lots are there. It is what it is.
That blight does not change the fact that Philadelphia is one of the most urban and developed cities in the country. To post three photos and then act as though it serves as proof that philly is not "urban" just makes you look foolish.
As far as whether or not Philly is more urban than san fran? It's debatable. They're both obviously very developed, urban cities and San Fran is insanely densely populated. You can't ignore the fact however that San Fran is one third of the size of philly. It's a lot easier to build up 50sq miles than it is to build up 150. That's just common sense.
If you took the densest and most urban 50sq miles of Philly and compared it to San Fran (as has been done countless times before) philly can compare very favorably to san fran. Not to mention the fact that once you start going beyond those 50sq miles philly tends to be more urban, Philly does after all have a metro area population that has almost 2 million more people than san frans.
So to answer the question "How can anyone argue Philly is more urban than San Francisco?" the answer is "many, many different ways"
Last edited by phillies2011; 07-22-2011 at 06:57 AM..
I have been to both cities and Philly has many more neighborhoods with block after block of rowhouses stretching for miles. San Francisco is dense but it is over a much smaller area. You can cherry pick random streets by the river docks and industrial areas in Philly but I will let pictures do the talking
Well, its obvious that Philadelphia has tons more available pieces of land for development whereas SF doesnt have many at all. Either its undevelopable due to physical constraints of nimbyism, or its a public space.
South of Market is the prime example of a once dilapidated industrial area that is now teeming with yuppies, new companies and block after block of condos and the like. Its quite impressive really.
Something else I notice and I think I've commented on this before is that SF and Philly are similar in the relative seamless transition between the actual downtown and surrounding neighborhoods, and that is excellent.
As phillies2011 noted, it is important to keep in mind that Philadelphia was, at one time, home to more than 2 million people (1950). During that time, it had a pop. density of over 15,000 people/sq. mile. (interestingly, if you were to take out the 14 square miles of undeveloped Fairmount Park, it shoots up to around 17,100 people/sq. mile; this is exactly the pop. density of present day San Francisco).
This is very relevant, because historic population density has strong implications for the modern appearance of a city in terms of development patterns. Obviously with post-industrial decline, there are notable portions of the city that had been abandoned -- many structures had been torn down due to disrepair. Today, those surface/abandoned lots look pretty incongruous to the very high surrounding structural density, but they are still a very small portion of the overall city. They do no characterize the majority of city neighborhoods which are, in large part, still intact.
At any rate, I think comparing the urbanity of San Francisco and Philadelphia is very much a process of splitting hairs. These are clearly two of America's most urban cities, and they both make for extremely interesting and unique living environments.
Well, its obvious that Philadelphia has tons more available pieces of land for development whereas SF doesnt have many at all. Either its undevelopable due to physical constraints of nimbyism, or its a public space.
South of Market is the prime example of a once dilapidated industrial area that is now teeming with yuppies, new companies and block after block of condos and the like. Its quite impressive really.
Something else I notice and I think I've commented on this before is that SF and Philly are similar in the relative seamless transition between the actual downtown and surrounding neighborhoods, and that is excellent.
agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino
As phillies2011 noted, it is important to keep in mind that Philadelphia was, at one time, home to more than 2 million people (1950). During that time, it had a pop. density of over 15,000 people/sq. mile. (interestingly, if you were to take out the 14 square miles of undeveloped Fairmount Park, it shoots up to around 17,100 people/sq. mile; this is exactly the pop. density of present day San Francisco).
This is very relevant, because historic population density has strong implications for the modern appearance of a city in terms of development patterns. Obviously with post-industrial decline, there are notable portions of the city that had been abandoned and many structures had been torn down due to disrepair. Today, those surface/abandoned lots look pretty incongruous to the very high surrounding structural density, but they are still a very small portion of the overall city. They do no characterize the majority of city neighborhoods which are, in large part, still intact.
At any rate, I think comparing the of urbanity between San Francisco and Philadelphia is very much a process of splitting hairs. These are clearly two of America's most urban cities, and they both make for extremely interesting and unique living environments.
well said
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