Albuquerque vs Denver vs Santa Fe (compare, places, America, bigger)

[EnjoyEP]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Excellent post, EnjoyEP! I'm looking forward to your more personally directed reponse to my question later.

Not a problem at all vegas.

More general response to your original line of questioning coming directly after this post. (I just HAD to respond to one or two more things on this topic quickly...or not so quickly! )...

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

I'm telling you, this website is like therapy to me.

Agreed vegas. I can't tell you how many freezing cold, dark, dank FEB, MAR upper Midwestern nights CD got my through by keeping me close to the Southwest!!

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

I think what you're saying about the advantages of medium sized/small cities to giant mega cities

Yep, and after re-reading my rantings / post, there was a main point that I didn't stress as well as I had wanted to or should have stressed.

My basic point:

You are especially in a dilemma with what advice you'll receive, what your basic instincts are with bigger cities, as it relates specifically to Albuquerque, or to a lesser degree, Santa Fe.

I cannot emphasize this enough. You are right about the bicoastal ignorance / idiocy / intended-but-act-like-it-is-unintended-unawareness of the many, but I am telling you this - if you would pick, say, Tucson, "at least it is in AZ" or if you picked Colorado Springs "at least it is in CO."

New Mexico - and its cities within - is the anti-state. Heck, a big fun self-depreciating (and also fun internal jab at other states) is the whole "one of our 50 is missing" thing in NM, where so many Americans fail to realize that New Mexico is even one of the fifty states of the US...if they know of its existance at all. Yes, of course, many times people think that New Mexico is Old Mexico, not the USofA, but also oft times, you'll see that essentially New Mexico is really "part of Arizona", or moreover, "part of Phoenix where it is 110 degrees for 9 months of the year" which isn't even true by a longshot for actual PHX.

You tell someone that you are moving to "Albuquerque, NM" and you may as well tell them that you are moving to Wyoming, North Dakota, Montana, or Idaho.

But moreover from that, a huge, huge, huge, HUGE appeal of many transplants into ABQ is that it is NOT Phoenix, it is NOT Vegas, it is NOT LA, it is NOT Denver (sorry), it is NOT Austin, and it is NOT Dallas. It isn't the kind of bland, generic EveryBigCity USA that most large cities have morphed into in the US. I am not trying to knock some of the cities that I know you love, vegas, as a) I would happily and easily live in many of these towns over many others in the US as I just love the SW in general like you, and b) I realize that each of these cities still do have some distinguishable identifiers...but believe me, for better or for worse, Albuquerque is far and away one of the absolute (if not *the* most absolute) unique big cities (metros of near-1 million) in the US.

Again, people by and large move to ABQ because they *don't* want to live in Phoenix, they *don't* want to live in Dallas, they *don't* want to live in Denver and they *don't* want to live in SD. They *want* to fall under the radar, they *want* to not be huge, they *want* to not be materialistic, and they *want* to have people in the big mega cities not understand why they would want to live there and what the appeal is to live there; frankly, if my colleagues from Chicago understood why I loved ABQ so much and why I did / do want to live there, then ABQ wouldn't be ABQ.

So you are wrestling hard, because you are putting ABQ in a category of comparison with the very conventional huge mega-city stature that currently encompasses young professional America: "[Blah, blah, blah]...NYC, Chicago, Seattle, Boston, (Yawn!), DC, Hotlanta (Yawn!), DFW, Miami, Albuquerque....WHAT???!!!....ALBU-WHAT??!!!....ALBU-HUH!!!!!???...what in the world is an "Albuquerque" and where in the world is that????!!! What, are you becoming a missionary to a 3rd world country or something??!!!"

You *can't* compare ABQ to a Vegas, a Denver, or a Phoenix. If you are looking for Fortune 500 companies, mega hip infrastructure, massive populations, etc., ABQ isn't there - nor does it want to be. ABQ is the anti-Phoenix. Phoenix residents have big chuckles about that (like Chicagoans due to Milwaukeeans) if they hear of "ABQ", but what they don't know or realize over there way-overpriced $14 martini is that it is the ABQeans laughing their butts off back at the PHXeans (or the Milwaukeeans at the Chicagoans) because they are actually living the better, easier, and more enjoyable life.

Finally...on this point...one thing to consider...of all of the "bigger" cities I have mentioned here to illustrate my points...none of 'em - NOT ONE - have a better year-round climate than Albuquerque, with the possible exception of SD and LA (and SD and LA only if you don't want seasons and absolutely no winter).

But in terms of non-SoCal, ABQ's year round weather takes a big dump on the PHX's, Vegas', and Denver's of the world. Austin too. So if one picks ABQ and gets some good-natured ribbing from someone in Phoenix, call them up in July when they've been going on their 3rd month of 98-115 degree constant temps and let them know about your days of 93 degree highs and 69 degree lows, or call your Denver ribbing buddies up and let them know about playing golf in January on a 58 degree high day when there is a foot of snow on the ground in DEN and a high temp of 31.

Again, don't get me wrong...most of these cities that it seems like I am speaking ill of, I would have little-to-no problem (despite some of their sizes which I could do, it would just annoy me) living in. I have spent years of my life in DEN and I really do like it tremendously. There is no where in the world nicer than Phoenix in January. Vegas I possibly in many regards prefer even more so than Phoenix; my wife and I even did our honeymoon in Vegas, and we aren't "strip", cheesy types of folks (and it was August) - we really just love the desert Southwest that much.

I am merely illustrating that the allure of ABQ - and NM in general - is kind of the anti-allure to the other cities you are considering. It is the 180 degree difference, and thus you are comparing in many respects apples to...um...microwaves.

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

is a similar analogy to mega sized international Fortune 500 corporations vs working for a smaller but still big company (that still might be a large company and even some international presence, just not on the Fortune 500 list). Or a big company vs working for a small, local business. I don't see why you couldn't still have a satisfying, challenging career just because the companies you work for aren't at the top of some list.

As for your last, bolded statement, nor do I.

Again, I am not crap on any "who's who" list, and even the crap ranks much higher than me in most instances, but I have worked places and done OK I think.

I have worked for giant, mega-corporations - as has my wife - and also little, tiny organizations. Heck, I was a Regional Manager for a tiny company based in the Arapahoe, CO area.

To me - and *to me only* - the huge, giant corporations weren't for me. I am not saying I will never work for one again...maybe I will...but I am not hoping for it.

Believe me, I am about as opposite as one can get from a hippie/punk rock type dude that is "anti establishment" and "bleep the Man"...I am an unabashed capitalist and so proud of it it hurts.

Having said that, on a personal level, I find big coporations just so bland, sterile, boring, cut-and-dry it hurts.

Are there advantages to working for the big boys? Sure! Typically great bene's. Typically many, many rooms for growth and achievement (although I would argue often this is just fiscally - the rest is added hours and stress). Obviously less of a chance for job loss due to mismanagement or economic downturn or self-inflicted economic downturn. The oppoortunity to relo intra-organization into many new cities / markets in the US, where the heart desires.

But to me, I prefer sometimes lollygagging in at 9am instead of 8. Sometimes I prefer hitting a happy hour at 4:30pm on a Friday instead of 5:30. Sometimes I prefer turning the radio on in my office just a hare louder, or taking a week of vacation whenever the heck I want to.

I like non-conventional employers. If I were you, I wouldn't look just as conventional stuff. I would talk to the Albuquerque Isotopes (Triple A baseball club) - see what they need (sports teams need accountants). I would look at the University of NM...colleges/universities need accountants. I would look at mom n' pop shops or radio/TV stations...the lists are endless.

How cool would it be to maybe make $8K less but to work somewhere laid back, chill, where you could be friends with your co-workers (on a non-material level), work at-most a 40 hour work week, not shed hours off of your life weekly with the stress and pressures, have you weekends to think about everything and anything BUT work, etc.?

It is all what makes you and drives you. If adding every concievable dollars onto each and every paycheck for the next five years is what motivates you (and if it does, even though I disagree with it, I'd never say you were wrong), then yes, go for a big boy. But if maybe just getting a solid income with a great resume backing post while still enjoying a plethora of other things in life is a big factor for you, I think smaller companies offer a heckuva lot.

[loborick]

Some really good stuff from EP. Good suggestions. In addition to looking at the Isotopes, the movie industry is growing by leaps and bounds here. And they always need accountants. There are plans for two studios in Rio Rancho, another in Santa Fe and Albuquerque Studios is already booked up completely. This is a huge growth industry in New Mexico and something you may want to look at.

[EnjoyEP]

OK, vegas, now for your original question!

OK, so you want to be within one-days driving distance to Santa Fe, plus you love the Southwest and you love Denver. Thus, that rules out a huge chunk of the nation in terms of a big city that is somewhat Santa Fe esque. You are pretty much confining yourself to the a) Southwest, and b) Utah/Colorado/Oklahoma - states that aren't Southwestern, but share some geographical similarities and indentifiers.

Plus you are looking for a semi-big city ideally, despite your thoughts of Santa Fe.

To me, that pretty much leaves only a few options, and since Phoenix is a "no" for you, you are boiled down - in my opinion - to only a couple few.

I would say your options given your criteria are: Tucson, Albuquerque, and Denver. Yes, you could consider Santa Fe, but I have read hundreds of your posts, we've "talked" so, so many times on the subject, and I feel like I have the drift of what you are most hoping for; Santa Fe - due to its size - isn't *it* (even though yes, sure, you could get a decent job there).

First, take out the job equation (in my opinion), as a guy as well-written and as well-thought as you are with your excellent educational credentials (once you grad in May in LA)...you as an accountant will be able to get a job anywhere. ANYWHERE!! Sure, maybe not that 500 resident town in Nebraska as readily, but comeon...a state capital (SF), ABQ, DEN, TUCSON, PHX, etc., etc., etc. - you'd get a decent paying job at a decent company / gig anywhere. Have some gosh-darned confidence in yourself and your credentials. Accountants are like engineers - everyone everywhere needs 'em, and if you have some freaking confidence and aptitude to sell yourself, you'll have a job of quality anywhere you want it.

Now, having said that, Santa Fe is too small for you. Yes, you are slightly seeing it through the traveler / vacationer's eyes. I know that you really are drawn largely by semi-big cities - maybe not the "mega" cities as you have enough wisdom to see through some of that smoke and mirrors hyperbole that lures many to rule out big-enough cities - but still enjoy cities of some population / size.

Santa Fe, as nice as it is - and it is a worldwide top tourist destination, internationally famous, a state capital, a destination of the rich and famous, etc. - it is still a town of less than 70,000 people. It is a small, small city. Even though it has much going for it that Pueblo CO doesn't - obviously - it is still smaller than Pueblo. Las Cruces, NM is bigger.

Now many think that oft I am picking on Santa Fe. Quite the contrary. If you have a specific set of interests / criteria that were a great match for SF, I would be egging you on to go for it. My esteemed CD Forum colleague Towanda, who I have had the priviledge to get to know through this forum, is a perfect person for SF. Many others too. Just guys like you / I, who deep-down earnestly prefer a regularly-sized "big city" would just be too out of our element in 65,000 populace SF.

Now...as for a best alternate to SF...

Santa Fe, as small as it truly is, because of its visability and viability as a huge worldwide tourist destination, shows itself as really 3 different Santa Fe's.
1) Kind of the Scottsdale-esque element. Even though they deny it, this is the #1 draw to SF for many (most?) current tourists / out of towners. Rich, wealthy, CAeans, AZeans, or Denverites that flock upon SF for the ever-so-hip and expensive and trendy shops and restaurants and spas, etc. They think of being in Santa Fe as showing they are being more "genuine and pure" than if they were in Scottsdale, but largely, they are in either for the same reason - to show that they have money, they wants to spends their money, and they love the super affluent, super schnazzy, super-I-am-here to drop dime-atmosphere.

2) The real, genuine Santa Fe of old that made it such a special place in the first place, and that drew good-hearted NM lovers like Towanda (or other local posters we have here in the CD Forums) to it. The majestic, open beauty. The distinctiveness. The utter lack of clutter, stress, congestion, or crammed space. The architecture. The culture. The uniqueness.

This Santa Fe in my opinion does stil exist, but one oft needs to go out looking for it, and it tends to not be the prominent SF anymore...but still holds on quite strongly. There are enough "Towandas" out there to offset the drop-$3K-on-a-necklace-at-the-city-cente to help stave things off for quite some time.

3) The kind of rough Santa Fe. While Santa Fe is a very safe community, those that *do* realize that SF is only 65,000 in populace don't realize that SF has a lot of the "bigger city" crime and seedy underbelly that most much bigger cities exercise.

There are still lots of seedy areas of SF with shady dealings and doings. Folks forget about this with SF, thinking that everything in little tiny SF is a shining beacon on the hill.

*****THIS IS
TO BE CONTINUED!!!*****VEGAS...I am SO SORRY...but I will be coming back with my recommendation in a separate post sometime tomorrow. As for now, let's just say that it is 1) ABQ, with an ever-so-close DEN. SF itself nowhere on the list, and frankly, ABQ blows anyone else on these criteria out of the water. More to come soon!

[vegaspilgrim]

Looking forward to hearing the rest of your thoughts tomorrow, EnjoyEP. You've already said quite a lot, but now that you started I just gotta hear the completion.

Just a few minor remarks so you don't feel like you're falling on deaf ears here:

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

You are especially in a dilemma with what advice you'll receive, what your basic instincts are with bigger cities, as it relates specifically to Albuquerque, or to a lesser degree, Santa Fe.

I cannot emphasize this enough. You are right about the bicoastal ignorance / idiocy / intended-but-act-like-it-is-unintended-unawareness of the many, but I am telling you this - if you would pick, say, Tucson, "at least it is in AZ" or if you picked Colorado Springs "at least it is in CO."

New Mexico - and its cities within - is the anti-state. Heck, a big fun self-depreciating (and also fun internal jab at other states) is the whole "one of our 50 is missing" thing in NM, where so many Americans fail to realize that New Mexico is even one of the fifty states of the US...if they know of its existance at all. Yes, of course, many times people think that New Mexico is Old Mexico, not the USofA, but also oft times, you'll see that essentially New Mexico is really "part of Arizona", or moreover, "part of Phoenix where it is 110 degrees for 9 months of the year" which isn't even true by a longshot for actual PHX.

That's the best way I've heard anybody describe how Americans outside of the region think of New Mexico-- "the anti-state." Did you come up with this phrase? If so, that belongs in Bartlett's quotations.

...but believe me, for better or for worse, Albuquerque is far and away one of the absolute (if not *the* most absolute) unique big cities (metros of near-1 million) in the US.

This I should probably save for the Albuquerque forum rather than this forum (but honestly I don't think a Santa Fe forum can be 100% distinct from Albuquerque issues, especially with these whole ABQ-SF "megapolitan" thing going on; it's obvious to me that ABQ and SF, as different as they are, have somewhat of a symbiotic relationship and are not actually 100% self sufficient cities from one another, but I digress), but this claim of the essential uniqueness of Albuquerque absolutely fascinates me. You're not the first person to have said this on these forums; it's a common trend I keep noticing from the Albuquerque posters on city-data over and over again. Many forums have their boosters (see the Omaha and Scranton posters on the General US forum... and the Houston boosters, St Louis people, and LA boosters), but the claim of Albuquerque residents that their city is one of the most unique in the US is quite possibly the boldest claim I've heard of any big, regional US city. About the only other comparable city that really claims this is New Orleans. I look at this like an investigator trying to solve a mystery. I neither buy this claim nor disbelieve it. But I'm dying to know more.

This is not an abstract philosophical question. This actually goes to the heart of why I may be interested in living in Albuquerque (or Santa Fe, but let's leave that out of the picture just for one moment)-- or on the other hand why while I feel some feelings towards ABQ I haven't yet been sold on the idea to say I WANT to move to Albuquerque, with a statement of confidence. With a strictly investigative attitude, not intending to sound one bit condescending or cocky: what exactly is it that according to you and many other ABQ posters on this board, makes ABQ so different? ABQ has most of the same chains that everywhere else in the country has, does it not? ABQ has great Mexican food, but so does pretty much every other city in the southwest (including your favorite, El Paso), and arguably LA has some of the best, the most authentic, and the most diverse regional styles of Mexican (and central and south American) food in the US. I won't deny that Albuquerque may very well be a significant food city in its own right, but a whole slew of other cities also have characteristic local cuisine and innovative local restaurants and local chains. Nob Hill? An eclectic and happening area, no doubt which ABQ should be proud to have. But Nob Hill is nothing that LA or Berkeley or Brooklyn doesn't have. Architecture? Different, without a doubt. But Tucson is just as uniquely southwestern, stylistically, as Albuquerque.

Weather? No other city has weather exactly like Albuquerque. But if you've seen Denver in all its seasons, you've seen Phoenix in all its seasons, you've seen Tucson in all its seasons, there is pretty much nothing about Albuquerque's weather that is new or unfamiliar to the experience. (more on this later) The Sandia Mountains? Absolutely gorgeous, without a doubt in my mind, and one of the top reasons to live in Albuquerque. But (and I might take some heat for saying this, I know), pound for pound, Tucson's mountains, particularly the Catalina Mtns north of the city, but also the Rincons to the east, are every bit as beautiful as the Sandias. Although the way Albuquerque is shaped, more of Albuquerque has a mountain view than in Tucson. But pound for pound, the Catalina mountains are every bit as majestic.

Let's talk Tucson for a minute here. Tucson is one of my favorite cities of all time. I'm not considering moving there as of this point in time (otherwise I could have easily gone to UofA, where I was also accepted, to get my master's), but I could go on and on for pages about why I love Tucson and why I believe Tucson is an incredibly unique city. Tucson and Albuquerque are often compared together... and for some very good reasons. The lush, jungle-like Sonoran desert landscaping that is present EVERYWHERE in Tucson, in both rich and poor areas is absolutely out of this world, if you ask me. Ironically, this is the exact reason why people in let's-either-have-a-golf-course-and-lakes-or-we'll-fill-our-yard-with-nothing-but-rocks-and-a-dinky-ornamental-cactus-but-bulldoze-the-native-landscaping-at-all-costs Phoenix hate Tucson with a veangence. Even little things like nobody in Tucson having paved driveways; so people in effect park their car on their dirt lawn; an absolute no-no in pretty much everywhere in the USA but standard practice in Tucson for both the poor slums of South Tucson and the rich retirees of the Catalina Foothills-- are incredibly unique. I've eaten at the original El Charro Cafe in downtown Tucson which claims they invented the chimichanga. Now if that's not a unique claim to fame, I don't know what is!

Tons of hole-in-the-wall, unique little restaurants and shops on bombed out streets like Speedway, Broadway, Oracle, Grant, Prince-- Tucson, at least from what I've seen so far has no shortage of southwestern coolness. Biosphere 2. Pima outdoor aircraft museum. Beatles songs have been written about Tucson. So I'd say Tucson is a very unique city, and from what I can tell it has all the same elements of uniqueness that Albuquerque has, but I still wouldn't put Tucson at the level of a New Orleans in the sense of being a one-of-kind culture that cannot be replicated in any other city. And this is what Albuquerqueans are saying about there city, and I strive to know why. Is Albuquerque basically the same thing as Tucson, just a higher desert version instead of lower desert? If that's really what it comes down to, then I think I "get" it. But the thing is, I DON'T think that's what Albuquerqueans are saying... they're saying that Albuquerque is even MORE unique than Tucson, not just at its level, but above. Just from the limited experiences I've had in my life so far I'd actually say Tucson is slightly more unique than Albuquerque. So what makes Albuquerque different than Tucson, making it even more distinct and even better than Tucson?

One thing hasn't been mentioned yet-- the people. You can take away the mountains, take away the desert winds, take away the architecture and the food, but fundamentally a city is made up of people. Is this what makes Albuquerque different? If so, how? Aren't people the same everywhere? Or are they different? Please enlighten me here.

IF I become convinced that Albuquerque truly is unlike any other city in the world, I would become motivated enough to turn down the arguably broader range of career opportunities available in admittedly generic Denver (even though I completely agree with you EnjoyEP that Albuquerque offers plenty and that big companies, big firms might not be all that they're cracked up to be anyway), IF I know that in return I'm getting something truly unique that money cannot buy. With Tucson I strongly felt in that direction, perhaps more than any other city I've been to (with one exception-- Jerusalem-- but let's only worry about the western hemisphere here! ), but still not quite enough to break the camel's back (otherwise I'd be at UA right now and I wouldn't be asking this question on this forum). Does Albuquerque have that extra shove of uniqueness beyond even Tucson that would make me a believer? But just saying "it does" isn't going to convince me. And I WANT to be convinced. The point of this novel-long rant I just typed up is... show me your guns! Tell me why Albuquerque is one of the most unique cities in the US.

I have some other pretty serious issues and questions with Albuquerque, but these questions can be more or less answered, worked out, or worked around. It's better for me though to bring these up instead of letting doubt and fear grow in my mind. Just to name them so I clearly communicate what's going on in my head, these other issues (and again, the ABQ forum may be the better place to discuss these... although honestly, I've brought them up before and the discussion really hasn't gone anywhere) are:

1. Does or does not Albuquerque have an unusually pervasive culture of gangs, violence, and crime... a serious problem that residents time after time again try to downplay? Is ABQ the kind of place where people are afraid to go out at night? If so, why? Or this this complete nonsense spread by trash talking trolls? If it's nonsense, where are the trash talkers getting their ideas from? Either way, it's a bug that's been planted in my head, and I need to know the answer. Will I personally feel safe living in Albuquerque? I do NOT feel safe in this neighborhood in LA where I'm living right now-- day or night, whether I'm outside or inside. And this neighborhood, while bad, is not even close to being the worst neighborhood in LA. In fact, there's people who will try to convince you on these forums that south Central LA is a good, middle-class area. Excuse my language, by I don't give a flying **** about rationalizations about how I'm some suburban boy weenie, and how crime happens everywhere. I want answers.

2. I don't know how to ask this without beating around the bush, so with full trepidation, I'll jump in. This is a VERY loaded question: I don't know whether or not Hispanics (I know that the word "Hispanic" in an inaccurate term invented by the US government, so please forgive me) are the majority population in Albuquerque, but without a doubt Albuquerque is a Hispanic city. Nobody with even one cell left in their brain who has ever set foot in Albuquerque would fail to notice this. The unique cultural mix of Albuquerque (and it's nearby Pueblos) is what makes Albuquerque Albuquerque, and New Mexico New Mexico. Obviously, if I had a problem with Hispanics I wouldn't even give Albuquerque a second's thought, and obviously I've thought a great deal about Albuquerque. But is a white person (specifically of eastern European Jewish heritage) moving to Albuquerque going to fit in smoothly with society there? Is there any us-them mentality in Albuquerque society? Obviously Albuquerque has tons of "white" people too-- heck, maybe even the majority. Does Albuquerque suffer from racial tension? I kind of feel that LA has some major ethnic/racial tension under the surface. Actually, not quite under the surface-- just look at the riots that occurred as recently as 15 years ago. Is Albuquerque a pretty tolerant city-- or are there some fundamental issues? Also, I hope this is a really dumb question, and I mean no offense in asking this, but is Albuquerque a city dominated by the Catholic Church? Does Albuquerque have a large population of Traditionalist Catholics (as in the ones who rejected Vatican II, etc)? Does Albuquerque have a large population of obscure religious orders like the penitentes? If so, is this going to effect my life in any way, shape or form?

I know that Albuquerque has several, not just one, but several synagogues, so I'm confident that I could find my religious niche there (and I'm not very religious at all, but I have my beliefs). I'm just wondering if not being Hispanic and/or not being Catholic is going to hamper my participation in Albuquerque society in any way, shape, or form. I hope not, and don't think so, but I want to ask to make sure.

3. The whole big city/small city career issue, which we've already covered.

Now, let's shift gears to a more lighter conversation:

But in terms of non-SoCal, ABQ's year round weather takes a big dump on the PHX's, Vegas', and Denver's of the world. Austin too. So if one picks ABQ and gets some good-natured ribbing from someone in Phoenix, call them up in July when they've been going on their 3rd month of 98-115 degree constant temps and let them know about your days of 93 degree highs and 69 degree lows, or call your Denver ribbing buddies up and let them know about playing golf in January on a 58 degree high day when there is a foot of snow on the ground in DEN and a high temp of 31.

I agree with you that quite possibly ABQ has the best weather of any city of over 500,000 people. However, this is where I have a slightly different personal preference than you: I still don't think that Albuquerque's climate, as wonderful as it is, is my personal ideal climate. I think Santa Fe's climate is the perfect climate. Albuquerque, as I quickly experienced for a few days earlier this summer, is still a little too hot for my tastes in the summer. Now, after experiencing Phoenix, I'm prepared for just about anything. I wouldn't not live in Albuquerque just because of a 5-10 degree unfavorable shift in temperatures. But if we're talking ideals here, Santa Fe has the perfect, balanced southwestern 4 season climate. I actually like it crisp and cold and I like snow! Seriously! Denver I think gets overloaded with snow just a little too much, but I can handle Denver's snow! I'm actually worried if I'll see enough of the heavenly powder living in Albuquerque. I love cool summer nights-- and walking around ABQ uptown shopping center at night early this June, it still felt a little too warm at night. Not like Phoenix in July, heaven forbid, but it actually kind of felt like Phoenix in April.

I've been in Santa Fe in the middle of summer where the day was 95 degrees as the high, and it got downright chilly at night. Call me a weirdo, but this is exactly what I love! Fortunately, Albuquerque is still cool enough for much of the year that I could still enjoy it. But for the record, Santa Fe I think is what I prefer the most. That's why Denver, from a climate point of view is fair game with me; Denver's not too cold for me in terms of temperature ranges. The most annoying thing about Denver's weather is the howling wind, the total unpredictability, and the over-the-top snowstorms that can occur. Also the fact that some days Denver does get very gloomy, just like you're in the midwest. I'm under the impression that while Santa Fe has almost identical temperature averages as Denver, it's a lot sunnier and even drier.

Having said that, on a personal level, I find big coporations just so bland, sterile, boring, cut-and-dry it hurts.

Are there advantages to working for the big boys? Sure! Typically great bene's. Typically many, many rooms for growth and achievement (although I would argue often this is just fiscally - the rest is added hours and stress). Obviously less of a chance for job loss due to mismanagement or economic downturn or self-inflicted economic downturn. The oppoortunity to relo intra-organization into many new cities / markets in the US, where the heart desires.

What you are saying very well might be true. I'd like to get other opinions on this too-- maybe I'll start a thread on the Work and Employment forum. Is the advantage of working for a bigger corp and putting in more hours and stress ONLY more pay? That very well could be true. On the other hand, maybe there are some additional nonmonetary advantages. Anyway, I'll save that for another forum.

Now, having said that, Santa Fe is too small for you. Yes, you are slightly seeing it through the traveler / vacationer's eyes. I know that you really are drawn largely by semi-big cities - maybe not the "mega" cities as you have enough wisdom to see through some of that smoke and mirrors hyperbole that lures many to rule out big-enough cities - but still enjoy cities of some population / size.

Santa Fe, as nice as it is - and it is a worldwide top tourist destination, internationally famous, a state capital, a destination of the rich and famous, etc. - it is still a town of less than 70,000 people. It is a small, small city. Even though it has much going for it that Pueblo CO doesn't - obviously - it is still smaller than Pueblo. Las Cruces, NM is bigger.

Now many think that oft I am picking on Santa Fe. Quite the contrary. If you have a specific set of interests / criteria that were a great match for SF, I would be egging you on to go for it. My esteemed CD Forum colleague Towanda, who I have had the priviledge to get to know through this forum, is a perfect person for SF. Many others too. Just guys like you / I, who deep-down earnestly prefer a regularly-sized "big city" would just be too out of our element in 65,000 populace SF.

You probably know me better than I know myself. Actually, you're right; it's more of a certain flavor or style that Santa Fe encapsulates that I'm enchanted by, moreso than the actual city of Santa Fe itself (although I'm certainly enchanted with the actual, real Santa Fe as well). What I'm asking for doesn't really exist; for me, it's about choosing the best option, not the perfect option.

1) Kind of the Scottsdale-esque element. Even though they deny it, this is the #1 draw to SF for many (most?) current tourists / out of towners. Rich, wealthy, CAeans, AZeans, or Denverites that flock upon SF for the ever-so-hip and expensive and trendy shops and restaurants and spas, etc. They think of being in Santa Fe as showing they are being more "genuine and pure" than if they were in Scottsdale, but largely, they are in either for the same reason - to show that they have money, they wants to spends their money, and they love the super affluent, super schnazzy, super-I-am-here to drop dime-atmosphere.

2) The real, genuine Santa Fe of old that made it such a special place in the first place, and that drew good-hearted NM lovers like Towanda (or other local posters we have here in the CD Forums) to it. The majestic, open beauty. The distinctiveness. The utter lack of clutter, stress, congestion, or crammed space. The architecture. The culture. The uniqueness.

This Santa Fe in my opinion does stil exist, but one oft needs to go out looking for it, and it tends to not be the prominent SF anymore...but still holds on quite strongly. There are enough "Towandas" out there to offset the drop-$3K-on-a-necklace-at-the-city-cente to help stave things off for quite some time.

3) The kind of rough Santa Fe. While Santa Fe is a very safe community, those that *do* realize that SF is only 65,000 in populace don't realize that SF has a lot of the "bigger city" crime and seedy underbelly that most much bigger cities exercise.

There are still lots of seedy areas of SF with shady dealings and doings. Folks forget about this with SF, thinking that everything in little tiny SF is a shining beacon on the hill.

I think you hit the money on this one. I'm getting tired now, and look forward to reading the second part of your response.

[EnjoyEP]

Hey vegas -

OK, "part II" coming right after this, but the big question you were asking - why is ABQ so unique? I would argue that most all of NM fall into this category, but comparing big cities, ABQ is tremendously unique to other big cities.

Now you are indicating that this a very bold claim, but I am actually not in any way saying ABQ is so unique with "boldness" or "bragging" behind it. To me, saying that ABQ is so incredibly unique is just kind of being honest - and this is for better or for worse with ABQ.

I tell folks on the forums and in "real life" when talking ABQ that folks'll either love it or hate it - there is little middle ground. And it won't be for the reasons that someone might hate, say, Dallas TX or Atlanta GA or Baltimore MD...it'll be because ABQ is just so unlike any other biggish city in the US. That doesn't mean it is so much *better* than any other biggish city in the US (for many, like me, it is, but for many others, it totally isn't).

Now, having said all of that, let me emphasize that it isn't as easy to encapsulate what makes ABQ so incredibly unique and different as a two day visitor. Living there for a month, two months, etc. starts to bring it, and after a few years (and then getting on a plane to do some work in, say, Houston or Philly) and you see - wow, ABQ is like living in a whole 'nother world.

Let me illustrate it even a bit more. If I am a regular working office dude with a wife, kids and a house, living in Milwaukee v. spending time in Chicago v. spending time in Denver v. spending time in St. Louis v. spending time in Orlando isn't *all that different* in terms of so many aspects of every day life. Sure, recreational opportunities, weather, etc., will be very different but overall - very similar lifestyles. ABQ is just different - the pace, the style of life, the culture, the way of life, etc. - just different. And while I love ABQ's growth, I hope d*** transplants like I was don't ever wreck or ruin that about ABQ and make it a mini-Denver.

What makes ABQ so unique isn't so much in terms of conventional "stuff" - tangible things that you identify on a relo website - weather isn't what makes it so unique as a city (although the weather is great). Topography isn't what makes it so unique (even though that is great). Having chain restaurants isn't what makes it so unique (yes, ABQ has 'em).

What makes ABQ so unique is just in its way of life. Its vibe. Its pace. Its style.

I will try to give some examples...

-In ABQ, my wife and I never felt passed by by fashion or styles; we are in our young-30s and try to look decent, but admittedly don't have the time, energy, desire or money to hit the mall every other week. In Denver, Milwaukee, Chicago, Atlanta, almost every other big city - go to the Downtown during the workweek or various fairly well traversed areas - and you'll see most folks "up" with fashion with one degree or the other. In ABQ, it isn't like people dress bad or anything, they just are, I guess much more relaxed about fashion and casual. But it isn't anything forced or intentionally casual...it just is what it is.

-ABQ has such a unique culture and vibe and pace. There is that element of manana there, but it isn't overly done. People are so laid back compared to most other cities and so much less high-stressed, high-paced...yet it isn't like you don't find folks that make good salaries. Many of the affluent in ABQ are more in technology or science and they just have a different way of embracing their earnings than the typical corporate dudes in most other cities.

-Traffic is haphazard, but not in the typical big city way. People are incompetent on the roads, not mean and overly stressed and aggressive. You'll commonly see right hand turns from left hand lands (across 3 lanes)...but not because the person is trying to be an a-hole...more, because they just are kind of off in their own world. You should hear the drive time radio "crash repots" on the radio...in other much bigger cities, the drive time traffic is more related to traffic jams and flows...in ABQ, you've got 3 crashes most afternoons! It just is what it is.

-I guess architecture does kind of play a bit of a role, as that distinct New Mexican look stands so strikingly out - not just the exteriors with adobe styling that I realize can be found elsewhere in the southwest, but interiors too - even in particular stylings.

-Even stuff like politics is so much different in and in ABQ. Liberals and conservatives alike often are different in their views. Liberals in ABQ tend to still be incredibly socially conservative or pro-business, and conservatives will vote for Democrats if they feel they are genuinely looking out for the best interests of the state and city and aren't being too "big government". It always fascinated me...you could say that it is very moderate, but it is moderate in a different way than most would consider.

-ABQ just is the least "trying hard" big city we have. Tucson would probably come close too. ABQ doesn't want to be Phoenix. They don't want to be Dallas. They don't want a huge, sprawling downtown skyline or, for those that do, they don't want them for the same reasons other cities do.

The food? Well, sure *New Mexican* cuisine plays a role in its uniqueness as a city (not Mexican, as surely you can get outstanding Mexican from San Antonio to LA to SD to Tucson and back)...but I wouldn't say that really plays a huge role. I think as it relates to tangible "stuff", kind of the combination of the cuisine, the architecture, and topography, the weather, etc. - into ONE - kind of adds to the uniqueness, but surely, individually the food alone doesn't make it terribly unique, as, as you've pointed out, regional cuisine can be found most anywhere.

ABQ is just the most content to be who and what it is city by far I have ever been to. ABQeans don't want to be like PHX. They don't want to be like DEN. They don't want to be like LA. Many ABQeans would be happy if they could close up the city and keep it as it is. Yet, when transplants come in, they are very friendly, accepting, and live as let live.

Did I say live as let live? That is a biggie in ABQ. In ABQ, you'll find some of the most prototypical "loony" New Mexicans, and yet they'll so easily co-exist next to the New Mexican/Hispanic family whose family has roots in ABQ going back decades if not longer, and next to the gringo family that just moved down 2 years ago to work at the Labs from Des Plaines, IL.

If it sounds like it is hard to quantify what makes ABQ so unique, it might be because it is. But I can guarantee you - whether you love ABQ or not - spending real time there, you'll come to agree. My boss from Denver who would always come down periodically to work with me in ABQ would always just be baffled - he loved it, but he'd never have wanted to live there.

It was just so chaotic (in a laid back way), laid back, just so-not-Denver. He'd see the dude riding his bike through the Frontier restaurant eating samples off of others' plates (not that this would be so unique, but that no one almost batted an eye except him!), he'd see the crazy driving, he'd see the guy in the office of a major real estate firm openly drinking a can of Tecate - at 2pm in the afternoon dealing with a customer - and no one really seeming all that out of sorts about it. I would just laugh.

You'll oft hear ABQ referred to as "Albu-quirky" or "Albu-crazy" and it truly is. It is just a different place. People either love that or hate that about ABQ. But get someone to live there for a year and have them report back to you - they are NOT coming back and saying, "oh yeah, it was just like Omaha"...ain't gonna happen!

So it isn't just one or two tangible things you can put your finger on - it isn't the sunsets, the weather, the mountains or the food - even though those things are great and help shape and mold ABQ's uniqueness in their own small ways - those things really aren't want make ABQ unique. It is just that collection of so many things I have cited, and pace, culture, vibe, etc., sure are biggies. ABQ just marches to the beat of its own drummer.

Final thought on this...my wife and I would always comment that when you are at a major airport - say DIA - you can walk down the long coridor of whichever you are in, and you look off and see the various groups of people waiting to board to their various desintations: St. Louis, Tampa, Portland, Tacoma, Sacramento, Witchita, Anchorage, Toledo, Pittsburgh, etc., etc., etc. And nearly in all cases, the folks'll kind of look the same. They are, after all, people and people alike. Sure, the Tampa folks'll be in shorts and the Seattle folks in sweaters, but by and large, they just all kind of blend in. And then when you pass the ABQ gate, it's a whole nother ballgame. You see them and are like "yep, here's ABQ" without even looking at the sign.

(Is that story totally infallable? Of course not 100%. But I think there is a whole heckuva lot of truth to it, and that is a great way to sum up why ABQ is so unique).

[Towanda]

I consider many cities to be "unique" in their own ways.

I've lived in ABQ - great city.

I lived in San Antonio - very unique city.

I lived in Kansas City - wonderful place to live.

I think it is relevant to discuss which city would be a good choice if one feels they cannot afford Santa Fe or the jobs are not there.... BUT I don't consider that there is any "big city alternative" to Santa Fe....but that is just my personal opinion and why I am living here and not in ABQ or San Antonio or Kansas City.

[Cathy4017]

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

Hey vegas -

OK, "part II" coming right after this, but the big question you were asking - why is ABQ so unique? I would argue that most all of NM fall into this category, but comparing big cities, ABQ is tremendously unique to other big cities........

It was just so chaotic (in a laid back way), laid back, just so-not-Denver. He'd see the dude riding his bike through the Frontier restaurant eating samples off of others' plates (not that this would be so unique, but that no one almost batted an eye except him!), he'd see the crazy driving, he'd see the guy in the office of a major real estate firm openly drinking a can of Tecate - at 2pm in the afternoon dealing with a customer - and no one really seeming all that out of sorts about it. I would just laugh.

EWWWWWW!!!!!! I hope he doesn't show up if I eat there!!! LOL!! Blech!!!!

[Vinegaroon]

Santa Fe is not a City. It is a village posing as a city.

[Towanda]

But a unique one.

[EnjoyEP]

OK...finally vegas...my long-promised part II final analysis to answer your original question!

In relation to your original question, if that is 100% deep-down where you are coming from and where you want to be, then I would pick Albuquerque.

Having said that...I have read many of your posts now for a few years...I still think I think Denver is the way your heart is leaning, and at the end of the day, I think you've gotta go the way you're strongly leaning. It just seems to me that you have too many questions, too many doubts, too many unknowns to really be happy in ABQ. I think if you ended up in ABQ - again, this is my gut feel from reading your many posts now for a few years and obviously I don't *know* this to be true - I think you'd be thinking of the brighter lights and quicker pace of Denver and kind of feel like you'd missed out by choosing "little" ABQ.

Having said that...

If I am misreading your prior posts (which is certainly more than possible) or, if you think perhaps your thoughts or interests have changed and now ABQ / Santa Fe are more viable - in clear cut honesty to who you are and what you truly want (and would be able to live with contently and happily) - then in response solely to the question as you posed it here, ABQ is the clear cut choice. Hands down. Not a doubt. Only Denver gives ABQ a run for its money.

First off, certainly, Towanda is correct in that ABQ isn't Santa Fe. Its not. Towanda also brings up San Antonio and Kansas City as being unique cities, and you know what, I largely agree with her. I don't think they are nearly *as* unique as a big city as Albuquerque is comparatively to other big cities, yet, I actually (go through my legions of posts here) would agree that KC and SA are two of the other more unique big cities in the US, and for that, I have always enjoyed them and applaud them. I think Towanda just has good tastes (or similar tastes! ) in cities!

Having said that...

Is Denver similar to Boulder?? In many ways, obviously no. But in many, many other ways, much more than many might realize - and some of those ways most everyone would fully realize.

Well, to me, ABQ is similar in its relation to Santa Fe, but even much more stronger. I am sorry...spend significant time in the Nob Hill area or the Old Town area in ABQ, and outside of maybe the temperature, ABQ has many, many similarities.

Again, just like Albuquerque is a very unique and individually significant place, so is Santa Fe. It is hard - as Towanda indicates (and as I am sure deep down you really know and realize vegas; you are very geographically savvy and intelligent - and your posts here I think back up where you are coming from quite soundly) - to compare 65,000 populace Santa Fe at 7000 feet in altitude to 500K / 850K metro ABQ at 5000 feet in altitude. In some respects, you are comparing apples to oranges.

But I think I fully understand and know where you are coming from in your quesitoning, maybe I would be so bold as to say moreso than possibly those that utterly love Santa Fe would understand your line of questioning. It isn't so much you are trying to replicate SF in a bigger city - as obviously you know that cannot be done and doesn't exist (a bigger city and SF combined to its lovers and even to a degree to me is an oxymoron, as if SF was 500K, it wouldn't be SF nor could it). Yet, the things you desire and love about SF...yet know that SF is very likely far too small for your ideal tastes...you are looking for your best "big city" alternate.

To me, that is obviously Albuquerque.

Let's be honest here. You have ABQ culture and you have SF culture - both distinct and unique. Yet, you also have NM culture overall state-wide which is also very unique and distinct and is shared...and being only 60 miles from one another, SF and ABQ share quite a bit of that.

Why do those that know NM like I feel as a novice of sorts I do, oft call Clovis or Portales on the eastern rim more of a "Texan culture" than a "New Mexican culture"??? It is just because, as much as NM is proud to have those towns in the state, often times culturally they feel and live more as a culture of the Texas panhandle than that of the very distinct and unique New Mexican culture.

This is also often why many / most with geographic awareness link El Paso TX more to New Mexican culture than to Texan culture. El Paso does have more of a Mexican / border-town culture and influence than much of New Mexico, however, at the end of the day, it shares much more culturally as a Southern New Mexico city than as a Texas city.

My long-winded point is this: Yes, culturally, ABQ and SF are obviously different - much precipitated because of size - but ultimately, they in many ways share the same NEW MEXICAN cultures and similarities.

Architecture between the two cities is fairly similar. (NOTE: I did not say it is entirely similar, just fairly). The food, while having some differentiations, is fairly similar. The vibe and pace and general outlook at life is fairly similar. Heck, simple geography dictates that even if living in ABQ, you are only 50 miles away from being in SF if you so choose - that makes similarities that are fairly obvious really strike you even so.

Denver has similarities to Santa Fe only in a few ways: The weather is one. Yes, you are right vegas...look through my legions of weather-related posts here...I have often compared SF and Denver and indicated that outside of snowfall, which Denver receives far more of, SF and Denver have nearly identical climates. Denver is more of a roller coaster - typically Denver will hvae more hot snaps in the summer (it is fairly rare for SF to ever get near the 100 degree mark where that isn't terribly uncommon in Denver), yet Denver also typically experiences more of the frigid and freezing cold snaps prolonged too. Overall though, you are right vegas, Denver and SF have very similar weather - especially in terms of sunshine and average annual temps.

To me, ABQ is far better than SF / Denver for climate, but yet, I still like the SF / Denver climate and would happily live in it. If you prefer that to ABQ strongly, I understand that, however, don't think that then settling for ABQ would be anything akin to settling for Phoenix or Vegas or Tucson...it'd be hotter and drier for sure, and slightly less season-istic, but it wouldn't be night-and-day different.

Denver also is similar to SF in its emphasis in portions (like SF emphasizes in portions) the cause of materialism, money, affluence, and the assortment allotted retail and goodies of such. Obviously, this is a huge chunk of SF's tourism attraction, and Denver has an enormous chunk of this locally as well. You surely will find more big ticket retail items purchased in SF than you would in most any other part of NM - by far.

Having said that, along with the mountains (which most SW cities offer in different degrees), that is about as close as the similarities get whe describing SF's common-ness to ABQ.

Yet, with ABQ, you are obviously less than an hour (rather than 5 hours) a drive away, your food, your architecture, your vibe/pace/culture, etc. - are obviously far more comparable to SF than any other big city in the US. Sure, some wacky place in Tucson may market "New Mexican cuisine" (and hey, they may even do it well) or some place in Denver may offer "Santa Fe style rugs" or have The Jackelope in a nearby burb, but comeon now, Denver is about as comparable to SF as the beginning stretch of I-25 Southbound is to the turnoff at SF.

ABQ is a really big city. In many ways, it is different from Santa Fe. But yet, at the end of the day, if you want a city to fit the criteria you mentioned here above, it has to be ABQ, the warmer climate and all. There just is nothing else big-city wise that comes close. Will some say that ABQ doesn't really come close to being a SF? Sure. And partially we know where they are coming from. Yet, they also know that if there was a big city counterpart, the only logical choice for naming that would be ABQ. And even if you get to ABQ and want more of that SF experience, unlike most other big city options, you could be to SF in less than an hour via a drive.

ABQ / SF / NM may be longshots for you vegas. But if there are still legit openings for you to consider one, ABQ in my mind is clearly the way to go.