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I've never started threads before so I'm doing this with trepidation. I do remember a writer though telling me that certain cities in California are surprisingly "Southern." He meant this, mostly, as a criticism. That he was dismayed at the number of Confederate flags and country music places in some places in Bakersfield or Modesto or wherever it was.
So is this an okay question? Or am I stepping into a stupid "baiting" exercise by accident?
I've never started threads before so I'm doing this with trepidation. I do remember a writer though telling me that certain cities in California are surprisingly "Southern." He meant this, mostly, as a criticism. That he was dismayed at the number of Confederate flags and country music places in some places in Bakersfield or Modesto or wherever it was.
So is this an okay question? Or am I stepping into a stupid "baiting" exercise by accident?
With statements like that, you probably are. I can't understand why the question can't simply be asked without some value judgment thrown in.
Having said that, I would say that many of the SE MO cities and even St Louis can feel very Southern.
With statements like that, you probably are. I can't understand why the question can't simply be asked without some value judgment thrown in.
Having said that, I would say that many of the SE MO cities and even St Louis can feel very Southern.
I was quoting someone I disagree with more or less. Okay I won't create threads again until I can think of something better. Apologies.
So is this an okay question? Or am I stepping into a stupid "baiting" exercise by accident?
Unfortunately, you are "baiting" by accident. There is an UGLY stigma that comes with being "southern". We all know why. The "old south" is dead, however there are MANY folks from areas outside of the south that still think the south hasn't changed much since the civil rights movement.
I have read MANY posts on line and have met SEVERAL folks in my travels that are surprised by the fact that I don't eat beef or pork; yet I am a black male that grew up in Charlotte. They are surprised that I attended a predominantly black Catholic school just north of Uptown Charlotte. They are surprised that I like pizza over fried chicken. Honestly, I can go on and on.
Many of these folks (from outside of the south) move down here and swear up and down that the south is not for them. I pay these folks VERY little attention because obviously, their home state wasn't for them either.
Many cities in the South (Charlotte being one of them) are now calling themselves "New South" cities. This phrase is an attempt to distance themselves from the ways and cultures of the "Old South". Heck, in Charlotte there is a museum called the Levine Museum of the New South. http://www.museumofthenewsouth.org/
Now that I've given my little rant, here is my answer to the topic question. Every city in the South is VERY southern because they are located in the south. Regardless of the city's local culture, a southern city is "southern". This is neither a good thing nor bad thing. It is a FACT thing. Which city is less southern or more southern is irrelevant by today's standards. Due to migration and the information age we live in, the ways of the old South can be found in NYC. The ways of old Boston can be found in Birmingham.
And yes, I have seen confederate flags all over the Nation. It is not a southern thing anymore. It is a "white pride" thing. I have NEVER seen a non-white person with a confederate flag T-shirt on. I am sure that non-white person is out there somewhere wearing that shirt proudly, however I have never seen him/her.
I would imagine that cities in border states would rank high here (e.g., St. Louis, Cincinnati). We should probably also determine exactly what the South consists of.
Unfortunately, you are "baiting" by accident. There is an UGLY stigma that comes with being "southern". We all know why. The "old south" is dead, however there are MANY folks from areas outside of the south that still think the south hasn't changed much since the civil rights movement.
Unfortunately, UC, there are all too many non-Southerners who WANT to believe it. It makes them feel morally superior and what you say is a foundation as to why. They will ignore all evidence otherwise as it would throw a monkey-wrench into the works.
These things "overlap" of course...but for some others, it boils down to something that is, perhaps, even understandable, on some levels. Not, I hasten to add, it has a basis in truth, but just that it stems from the fact that many northern history books and the NE and West Coast media have always presented the South as a horrid netherworld. As LBJ once put it, there is "a disdain for the South that seems to be woven into the fabric of northern experience".
That quote came from his memoirs (The Vantage Point). I am no fan of LBJ, but he had some very astute insights in this regard. He had to run for president as a "westerner" because he felt the "eastern press" would never accept a Southerner. They made fun of his accent, style, clothes and manners. He even told his staff to downplay Texas' affiliation with the South and emphasize the more "neutral" and heroic image of the Texas association with the post-bellum frontier West (i.e. cowboys, cattle, etc). Yet, he was under no illusions. As he said, Texas is part of the South...in the sense it "shares a common heritage and outlook which differers from the Northeast, Midwest, or Far West..."
Ok...I am straying a bit. Sorry! Main point is that you are very correct -- and I used the LBJ thing to back it up just a tad...
The only difference in de-jure (i.e. Jim Crow) laws in the South as opposed to de-facto in the North and Far West, was that Southerners were just less hypocritical about it all.
I wish I could find and post it as hard data (been trying! LOL), but opinion polls indicate that it is the South where blacks and whites are most optomitic about race-relations today. Schools and life in the Southern states -- per capita -- are the most integrated of any in the country today.
And in some ways? It always HAS been that way. Despite what many of the 5th Avenue crowd might think....
Just one example of how the pre-Civil rights era South died a natural death quite a while ago (we didn't need yankee help to do it, by the way)...?
Is how it seems to be black Southerners on C-D who are the most ardent defenders of our region, today!
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