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I'm saying use MSAs. I know city limit populations are flawed I NEVER said use city populations. So are csas because some cities don't even have a CSA. Nevermind that we had been talking about MSAs mostly until this point.
I never got into which city is better because that's very subjective and could be argued forever. What I've been saying is that when you look at the MSA both population and growth rate shows Nashville and Charlotte are in the same league.
The Census Bureau has done a "fine job" of really muddying the water with its CSA/MSA reporting strategy because it doesn't seem to make sense when one really digs into each and considers the supposed criteria for establishing them.
In the end, nobody lives by invisible boundaries and our perceptions often become a more valuable and personally reliable indicator.
Raleigh and Durham being split up has become very misleading for outsiders looking at stats on the RDU area. Durham and Raleigh both share counties, but don't share the same metro? Get outta here! Raleigh-Durham is an MSA of 1.7 million people. I don't care what the nut jobs at the census bureau say. Raleigh's biggest economic engine is in Durham county. If both were recombined it would still only consist of seven counties in a little over 3,000 sq miles! RDU will reach 2 million in the next 6-7 years easily, without needing to artificially add counties to it's metro.
Comparing The Greater Raleigh area to Tulsa, Oklahoma City, and Birmingham, should officially get UrbanCharlotte banned. That is trolling and spreading mis-info at it's finest. He's mad because he's actually outgrown Charlotte and making excuses on why it's this oh so this powerhouse of a city. Give me a break. When I first moved down here, I lived in Charlotte. It's a nice city, NO very nice city, but it's no where near what the UrbanTroll makes it out to be.
Nashville MSA
1.6 million people (roughly)
5,700 sq/mi of land
Charlotte MSA
1.7 million people (roughly)
3,000 sq/mi of land
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivelafrance
I know city limit populations are flawed
Then why do you keep bringing them up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivelafrance
So are csas because some cities don't even have a CSA.
Charlotte and Nashville do. Only 200 sq/mi separate Charlotte's 6,500 sq/mi CSA to Nashville's 6,300 sq/mi. Yet the difference in population is nearly 800,000 people. This FACT is why you would rather look at the "similar" MSAs of these two (while completely ignoring the fact that Nashville's MSA covers nearly twice the amount of land as Charlotte's MSA).
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivelafrance
Nevermind that we had been talking about MSAs mostly until this point.
I am fine with only talking about MSAs. Let's just not forget that Nashville's MSA has nearly double the land and 100,000 less people in it. This much is a FACT that isn't even debatable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivelafrance
I never got into which city is better because that's very subjective and could be argued forever. What I've been saying is that when you look at the MSA both population and growth rate shows Nashville and Charlotte are in the same league.
No one has argued Charlotte and Nashville not being in the same league. However, Nashville is more comparable to Louisville, Birmingham, Jacksonville, Raleigh, Memphis, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Richmond, and a few others than it is to Charlotte.
Quote:
Originally Posted by metro.m
Comparing The Greater Raleigh area to Tulsa, Oklahoma City, and Birmingham, should officially get UrbanCharlotte banned.
Metro, you are soooooo right. Please forgive me. Tulsa, Oklahoma City, and Birmingham all have larger skylines than Raleigh. My bad. This is a TERRIBLE comparison on my part.
Nashville MSA
1.6 million people (roughly)
5,700 sq/mi of land
Charlotte MSA
1.7 million people (roughly)
3,000 sq/mi of land
Then why do you keep bringing them up?
Charlotte and Nashville do. Only 200 sq/mi separate Charlotte's 6,500 sq/mi CSA to Nashville's 6,300 sq/mi. Yet the difference in population is nearly 800,000 people. This FACT is why you would rather look at the "similar" MSAs of these two (while completely ignoring the fact that Nashville's MSA covers nearly twice the amount of land as Charlotte's MSA).
I am fine with only talking about MSAs. Let's just not forget that Nashville's MSA has nearly double the land and 100,000 less people in it. This much is a FACT that isn't even debatable.No one has argued Charlotte and Nashville not being in the same league. However, Nashville is more comparable to Louisville, Birmingham, Jacksonville, Raleigh, Memphis, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Richmond, and a few others than it is to Charlotte.
The CITY of Nashville is very comparable to Charlotte. What are you smoking? Nashville is even more urban and cultural than Charlotte. What is Charlotte to you? L.A., Chicago? Or what do you want it to be. What? You refuse to compare Nashville's strengths, because you know it's true. Nashville and Charlotte are both progressive cities, why do you insist on comparing it to backwoods cities (No Offense), that are stagnant?
You try to win debates by relegating your opponent to the lowest possible denominator to make them appear irrelevant, but in the mean time you lose credibility. You refuse any middle ground that's offered to you. That's a sign of insecurity and immaturity.
Raleigh-Durham is an MSA of 1.7 million people. I don't care what the nut jobs at the census bureau say.
Wait a minute now. I know what you're getting at, but the Census (or OMB) didn't arbitrarily split up Durham and Raleigh. You can't go around saying that the Triangle is an MSA of 1.7 million when the Census doesn't classify it as such. Then you would be just as dishonest as you claim others are. Just say, "Due to the highly interdependent nature of the Triangle, it essentially functions as a single metro despite the Census splitting it up into two MSAs." That would be more accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte
As many times as Charlotte's "relatively small" MSA is mentioned, no one has EVER mentioned how Charlotte's GDP per capita stacks up against other cities in the World. Being that Charlotte's MSA is soooo small (in land area and population) my guess is that Charlotte's GDP per capita is pretty high. Let's look at how Charlotte's per capita GDP looked back in 2005 (just four years ago).
Table 2 Top 100 World Metropolitan Regions Gross Domestic Product per Capita: 2005 Estimates Purchasing Power Parity Metropolitan Areas over 1,000,000 Population Rank Nation Metropolitan Area GDP per Capita
1 United States San Jose $78,700 2 United States Charlotte $67,900
3 United States San Francisco $65,400
4 United States Washington $65,300
5 Belgium Brussels $63,700
6 United States Boston $59,000
7 United States Seattle $57,600
8 United States New York $56,200
9 Sweden Stockholm $55,100
10 United States Hartford $55,000
11 United States Denver $54,700
12 United States Minneapolis-St. Paul $54,600
13 Germany Hamburg $53,500
14 United States Dallas-Fort Worth $53,000
15 United States Houston $51,900
16 United States Indianapolis $51,800
17 United States Philadelphia $50,100
18 United States San Diego $50,000
19 United States Atlanta $49,600
20 United States Los Angeles $49,100
21 United States Chicago $48,400
22 United States Salt Lake City $48,200
23 United States Milwaukee $47,800 24 United States Nashville $47,700
24 United States Columbus (Ohio) $47,700
26 United States Las Vegas $47,400
27 Austria Vienna $47,000
28 Australia Perth $46,700
29 United States Portland (Oregon) $46,600
30 United States Kansas City $46,400 Rating World Metropolitan Areas: When Money is an Object | Newgeography.com (this is the link to the remaining 70 not listed above)
In all honesty, when the HUGE gap between Charlotte's MSA and CSA population closes, Charlotte's GDP per capita will drop like a rock. However, right now it is up there. To my knowledge, Charlotte has dropped some spots since 2005 (due to the MSA growing faster than the GDP), however Charlotte is still "up there" in GDP per capita.
Wait a second, this is GDP per capita. There's a significant gap on this list between Charlotte and Atlanta, Charlotte and Los Angeles, Charlotte and Chicago, etc. as well, but surely no one in their right mind will say that Charlotte is head and shoulders above those cities. Let's stick to regular old GDP figures when taking that statistic into account.
I also wish to say this. I know statistics have their place, because I use them as well to make my points when necessary. But what also counts just as much is the general feel of a place and how progressive it is. In that sense, Nashville and Charlotte are very apt comparisons, more so than Nashville and Birmingham.
I know. I only posted the per capita GDP to show that Charlotte can be viewed two ways. Charlotte either has an "inflated" GDP, or an "under-inflated" MSA. You be the judge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhenaton06
I also wish to say this. I know statistics have their place, because I use them as well to make my points when necessary. But what also counts just as much is the general feel of a place and how progressive it is. In that sense, Nashville and Charlotte are very apt comparisons, more so than Nashville and Birmingham.
The problem is that the "general feel of a place" is 100% subjective and can not be proven in any way, shape, or form. I personally felt Nashville had a "better" downtown area than Charlotte 10 years ago, however not everyone will agree with that feeling.
Now, back to more objective data. One thing that I have noticed is that nearly all stats on metro Nashville are based on Nashville's MSA (as they are based on Charlotte's MSA also). That being said, don't you find it interesting that Charlotte adds more people in a 3,000 sq/mi MSA than Nashville does in a 5,700 sq/mi MSA? It is enough to make one wonder how many people are actually moving into Charlotte's 6,500 sq/mi CSA. I know Iredell county is seeing tons of growth that isn't included in Charlotte's MSA growth stats. Almost all of Nashville's growth is included in its MSA (while Charlotte's is not).
Knowing this, is it "fair" to compare the stats of a 5,700 sq/mi MSA to that of a 3,000 sq/mi MSA? Would it not be "better" to compare the stats of the CSAs of both areas (being that the CSAs are closer in land area 6,500 vs 6,300 sq/mi.) Just a thought...
Quote:
Originally Posted by metro.m
The CITY of Nashville is very comparable to Charlotte.
Yes!!! They are VERY comparable at the CITY level. However, we ALL know that the CITY level is NOT the true measure of size (and importance). The MSA/CSA is. This is where Charlotte is not quite the same as Nashville. Are you willing to argue that MSA/CSA size and density means nothing when comparing cities? hmmmmmmm?
Last edited by urbancharlotte; 11-03-2009 at 01:37 PM..
I know. I only posted the per capita GDP to show that Charlotte can be viewed two ways. Charlotte either has an "inflated" GDP, or an "under-inflated" MSA. You be the judge.
The problem is that the "general feel of a place" is 100% subjective and can not be proven in any way, shape, or form. I personally felt Nashville had a "better" downtown area than Charlotte 10 years ago, however not everyone will agree with that feeling.
Now, back to more objective data. One thing that I have noticed is that nearly all stats on metro Nashville are based on Nashville's MSA (as they are based on Charlotte's MSA also). That being said, don't you find it interesting that Charlotte adds more people in a 3,000 sq/mi MSA than Nashville does in a 5,700 sq/mi MSA? It is enough to make one wonder how many people are actually moving into Charlotte's 6,500 sq/mi CSA. I know Iredell county is seeing tons of growth that isn't included in Charlotte's MSA growth stats. Almost all of Nashville's growth is included in its MSA (while Charlotte's is not).
Knowing this, is it "fair" to compare the stats of a 5,700 sq/mi MSA to that of a 3,000 sq/mi MSA? Would it not be "better" to compare the stats of the CSAs of both areas (being that the CSAs are closer in land area 6,500 vs 6,300 sq/mi.) Just a thought...
Yes!!! They are VERY comparable at the CITY level. However, we ALL know that the CITY level is NOT the true measure of size (and importance). The MSA/CSA is. This is where Charlotte is not quite the same as Nashville. Are you willing to argue that MSA/CSA size and density means nothing when comparing cities? hmmmmmmm?
You are ignoring a HUGE fact I have posted several times.
The Nashville MSA is large in land area, yes! However that's because there are counties in the MSA that are not really part of the Nashville area.
Look at the numbers.
You could take FIVE counties out of Nashville's MSA and not even lose 100,000 people!
The county seats of these counties are all about 1 hour from Nashville and some don't even have interstate access. They somehow have the commuters going into Nashville's core counties but I can promise you 100% there is NOTHING suburban about these counties.
Trousdale County - 7,822
Cannon County - 13,804
Smith County - 19,107
Macon County - 21,838
Hickman County - 23,841
Total - 86,412
2 other counties in the metro have small populations but big land areas. Most of the population of these counties lives right along the interstate and Nashville border.
Cheatham - 39,396
Dickson - 47, 884
Total - 87,240
This shows that the VAST, VAST, VAST majority of Nashville's MSA population lives in 6 counties. These 6 counties are the ones with the fast growth rates. The counties I listed above are barely growing. The six core counties include Nashville-Davidson and 5 counties surrounding it where most of the population lives close to the Nashville border or along major interstate corridors. The population of the Nashville MSA is absolutely not as spread out as you make it seem. You could get rid of over half the counties in the MSA and not even lose 200,000 people.
You are ignoring a HUGE fact I have posted several times.
The Nashville MSA is large in land area, yes! However that's because there are counties in the MSA that are not really part of the Nashville area.
Look at the numbers.
You could take FIVE counties out of Nashville's MSA and not even lose 100,000 people!
The county seats of these counties are all about 1 hour from Nashville and some don't even have interstate access. They somehow have the commuters going into Nashville's core counties but I can promise you 100% there is NOTHING suburban about these counties.
Trousdale County - 7,822
Cannon County - 13,804
Smith County - 19,107
Macon County - 21,838
Hickman County - 23,841
Total - 86,412
2 other counties in the metro have small populations but big land areas. Most of the population of these counties lives right along the interstate and Nashville border.
Cheatham - 39,396
Dickson - 47, 884
Total - 87,240
This shows that the VAST, VAST, VAST majority of Nashville's MSA population lives in 6 counties. These 6 counties are the ones with the fast growth rates. The counties I listed above are barely growing. The six core counties include Nashville-Davidson and 5 counties surrounding it where most of the population lives close to the Nashville border or along major interstate corridors. The population of the Nashville MSA is absolutely not as spread out as you make it seem. You could get rid of over half the counties in the MSA and not even lose 200,000 people.
You're wasting your time with this guy trust me. I've been arguing with this fellow for about two years now. His arguments are always the same no matter what. He will never try to look at it from your perspective. Honestly, I think he types this nonsense to get a rise out of people. I can see him now laughing in front of his laptop, and telling his wife "come look at this!" This isn't the only forum board he frequents, he's all over the place. Same videos, same stats, same pictures, same trucking story. He's on the road bored with nothing else better to do... Thing is I would probably like him in real life, but he gets under your skin like a loud mouth relative in the cyber world.
I know. I only posted the per capita GDP to show that Charlotte can be viewed two ways. Charlotte either has an "inflated" GDP, or an "under-inflated" MSA. You be the judge.
The problem is that the "general feel of a place" is 100% subjective and can not be proven in any way, shape, or form. I personally felt Nashville had a "better" downtown area than Charlotte 10 years ago, however not everyone will agree with that feeling.
Now, back to more objective data. One thing that I have noticed is that nearly all stats on metro Nashville are based on Nashville's MSA (as they are based on Charlotte's MSA also). That being said, don't you find it interesting that Charlotte adds more people in a 3,000 sq/mi MSA than Nashville does in a 5,700 sq/mi MSA? It is enough to make one wonder how many people are actually moving into Charlotte's 6,500 sq/mi CSA. I know Iredell county is seeing tons of growth that isn't included in Charlotte's MSA growth stats. Almost all of Nashville's growth is included in its MSA (while Charlotte's is not).
Knowing this, is it "fair" to compare the stats of a 5,700 sq/mi MSA to that of a 3,000 sq/mi MSA? Would it not be "better" to compare the stats of the CSAs of both areas (being that the CSAs are closer in land area 6,500 vs 6,300 sq/mi.) Just a thought...
Yes!!! They are VERY comparable at the CITY level. However, we ALL know that the CITY level is NOT the true measure of size (and importance). The MSA/CSA is. This is where Charlotte is not quite the same as Nashville. Are you willing to argue that MSA/CSA size and density means nothing when comparing cities? hmmmmmmm?
Everyone knows Charlotte is the 2nd most prominent city in the US. You need to start cooking up some stats so Charlotte comes off as better than NYC. THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO DO!!!!!!!!!
You're wasting your time with this guy trust me. I've been arguing with this fellow for about two years now. His argument are always the same no matter what. He will never try to look at it from your perspective. Honestly, I think he types this nonsense to get a rise out of people. I can see him now laughing in front of his laptop, and telling his wife "come look at this!" This isn't the only forum board he frequents, he's all over the place. Same videos, same stats, same pictures, same trucking story. He's on the road bored with nothing else better to do... Thing is I would probably like him in real life, but he gets under your skin like a loud mouth relative in the cyber world.
Guess so. Thing is, I think Charlotte's a great city. I've been there about 10 times in the past 8 years. It's grown a lot. I'm not arguing which city is better...if I was I could totally understand his defensive position. However, which I'm just arguing that Nashville's in the the same tier and very comparable to Charlotte it doesn't make sense to be so defensive. Why are you so scared of being compared to Nashville? It seems like a lot of people on this thread have agreed that they can be compared.
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One thing that I have noticed is that nearly all stats on metro Nashville are based on Nashville's MSA (as they are based on Charlotte's MSA also). That being said, don't you find it interesting that Charlotte adds more people in a 3,000 sq/mi MSA than Nashville does in a 5,700 sq/mi MSA? It is enough to make one wonder how many people are actually moving into Charlotte's 6,500 sq/mi CSA. I know Iredell county is seeing tons of growth that isn't included in Charlotte's MSA growth stats. Almost all of Nashville's growth is included in its MSA (while Charlotte's is not).
