What do you love/hate about Cleveland? (Northfield: casino, beaches)

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

That's your opinion. And yes, by default, you saying something is "cool" means you consider it a success. If it's a failure in "dirty white druggy" filled Portland, how would it be a success by building it here on a Public Square that you are currently afraid to walk through?

BTW, I have a Master's in Engineering. You?

It is sad when this forum as to go to degrees one has; I could say I have this and that degree. Even more sad when it gets down to more bus traffic on Superior v. the sw quadrant of the square. So, adios Clevelanders!! It's been interesting ...somethings make it seem things are moving forward and then I see Cleveland_Collector, from the suburbs of course, whining about the upper-classes in Tower City, which is now no-class; is there really a dollar store in there now? All part of that post-Gateway focus on non-industrial development I see you ranting about.

I'm not afraid to walk thru PS, but out-of-towners would be...I do know a few things about Cleveland's recent past, and know that two architectural gems were torn down on the west side of the square; they were full of tenants, so you're making facts up aka lying about them being vacant and in disrepair. These buildings had a cover facade on them, kinda like the Schofield Building at 9th/Euclid. That was during the Gateway planning era when Cleveland was doing all that focus on non-industrail development and it got stuck with a vacant lot right on the square. Now, in the post-Gateway era you claim is really great, Cleveland lost that gem over on Prospect for a friggin parking garage. Why didn't that building have tenants in the post-Gateway era? I forgot, it has only been 18 years since Gateway opened and things don't happen overnight in Cleveland...

Cleveland was the foreclosure capitol of the country at one time and 60 minutes is doing stories about the city's housing destruction and you're claiming things are steady as she goes and moving forward the past 20 years? The city is disappearing and you focus on E 4th etc....please stay in Independence.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by Kamms

I would also like the Great Lakes states to have an economic and population resurgence. I recall, however, that you thought $400 million to relocate Sears was a good deal; two weeks later, major store closing announcements. Ohio should not attract and pay for dying corporations. The $400 million, no strings attached, high-speed rail donation to Ohio and the subsequent loss of that money and project do not bode well for Ohio. Kasich killed rail with the money give-away but was willing to put up $400 million for Sears? Something is wrong in the Buckeye State.

I still think it would've been good for Ohio, honestly. Closing underperforming stores was something I had thought likely.

And as much as I support rail, nationally the high-speed rail projects and the subsequent money have shown to be largely very inadequate and going nowhere.

And if there is something wrong with Ohio, that goes double for a state that is losing population (unlike Ohio), has only one significant city (and it's decline is easily the most severe in the country) and frankly almost nothing going for it at all. Michigan may very well be the absolute biggest disaster in the Eastern 2/3rds of the country. I would say nationally, but California is in very bad shape as well.

[ZnGuy]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

I still think it would've been good for Ohio, honestly. Closing underperforming stores was something I had thought likely.

And as much as I support rail, nationally the high-speed rail projects and the subsequent money have shown to be largely very inadequate and going nowhere.

And if there is something wrong with Ohio, that goes double for a state that is losing population (unlike Ohio), has only one significant city (and it's decline is easily the most severe in the country) and frankly almost nothing going for it at all. Michigan may very well be the absolute biggest disaster in the Eastern 2/3rds of the country. I would say nationally, but California is in very bad shape as well.

I don't believe Michigan is bad as you say. I do alot of auto business in Detroit and I will tell you the automotive sector is probably one of the strongest sectors in our economy with auto sales near 14 million vehicles forecast in 2012. The industry has legs with the pent up demand, the average age of cars on the road at the highest in 15 years (~11 years old)and financing rates at historically lows. I do believe that downtown Detroit has some major hurdles to overcome but I find the suburbs great especially in the North, especially Birmingham. I consider Grand Rapids a very nice city (pop 200k) so not sure how you say it has only one significant city, I also think highly of Kalamazoo and some of the assume lakeside towns. I think you should check your facts, all Ohio larger cities (not COL) has been losing population and Cleveland declined 17% in last 10 years which is 100 yr low.If I recall, Ohio has something in common with MI in that you both lost some seats in Congress based on the Census (OH lost two seats and MI lost one seat). Although IMO Ohio may gain by subraction if it rids of Kucinich
Now back on topic..

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by ZnGuy

I don't believe Michigan is bad as you say. I do alot of auto business in Detroit and I will tell you the automotive sector is probably one of the strongest sectors in our economy with auto sales near 14 million vehicles forecast in 2012. The industry has legs with the pent up demand, the average age of cars on the road at the highest in 15 years (~11 years old)and financing rates at historically lows. I do believe that downtown Detroit has some major hurdles to overcome but I find the suburbs great especially in the North, especially Birmingham. I consider Grand Rapids a very nice city (pop 200k) so not sure how you say it has only one significant city, I also think highly of Kalamazoo and some of the assume lakeside towns. I think you should check your facts, all Ohio larger cities (not COL) has been losing population and Cleveland declined 17% in last 10 years which is 100 yr low.If I recall, Ohio has something in common with MI in that you both lost some seats in Congress based on the Census (OH lost two seats and MI lost one seat). Although IMO Ohio may gain by subraction if it rids of Kucinich
Now back on topic..

You don't have to believe me, look for yourself. The auto industry was also doing well in the 1990s and early 2000s when SUVs were the bread and butter. How'd that work out for most of them during the recession? I seem to remember some bailouts. It's much easier to make money when you no longer have serious debt, but they've been in this position before and haven't kept it going. I wish the auto industry well, but I'm not convinced the real problems have been solved.

The suburbs don't make Detroit, the city does. And every part of Detroit is losing people, from the city, metro, region and state. Most people don't know Grand Rapids and I don't think most people would consider it significant. I think it's actually on par with Ohio's Dayton, though even smaller. Dayton is mid-size and most people do not think of it when thinking about significant cities in Ohio. Grand Rapids, incidentally, is also losing people.

My point is not to say that every Ohio city is doing well. Both our cities and those in Michigan face challenges, to be sure. However, Michigan overall is clearly in worse shape right now. Ohio is still growing, Michigan is not. Ohio has lower unemployment (all 3-C metros are lower than the national average), a larger GDP, a higher per capita income, higher tourism rates, etc. Also, Ohio is set to benefit significantly more from the gas boom and other economic developments than Michigan is. I think cities like Cleveland and Youngstown will be very different places in the coming decades.

[homiej]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

You don't have to believe me, look for yourself. The auto industry was also doing well in the 1990s and early 2000s when SUVs were the bread and butter. How'd that work out for most of them during the recession? I seem to remember some bailouts. It's much easier to make money when you no longer have serious debt, but they've been in this position before and haven't kept it going. I wish the auto industry well, but I'm not convinced the real problems have been solved.

The suburbs don't make Detroit, the city does. And every part of Detroit is losing people, from the city, metro, region and state. Most people don't know Grand Rapids and I don't think most people would consider it significant. I think it's actually on par with Ohio's Dayton, though even smaller. Dayton is mid-size and most people do not think of it when thinking about significant cities in Ohio. Grand Rapids, incidentally, is also losing people.

My point is not to say that every Ohio city is doing well. Both our cities and those in Michigan face challenges, to be sure. However, Michigan overall is clearly in worse shape right now. Ohio is still growing, Michigan is not. Ohio has lower unemployment (all 3-C metros are lower than the national average), a larger GDP, a higher per capita income, higher tourism rates, etc. Also, Ohio is set to benefit significantly more from the gas boom and other economic developments than Michigan is. I think cities like Cleveland and Youngstown will be very different places in the coming decades.

You've got to be kitten me right meow.

But for real, this is rather ridiculous. Lots of biased "facts" and half-truths.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by homiej

You've got to be kitten me right meow.

But for real, this is rather ridiculous. Lots of biased "facts" and half-truths.

What did I say that was specifically wrong or you disagreed with.

[ZnGuy]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

You don't have to believe me, look for yourself. The auto industry was also doing well in the 1990s and early 2000s when SUVs were the bread and butter. How'd that work out for most of them during the recession? I seem to remember some bailouts. It's much easier to make money when you no longer have serious debt, but they've been in this position before and haven't kept it going. I wish the auto industry well, but I'm not convinced the real problems have been solved. Many areas of country got hit in the 2000s, he even NE OH got hurt with autos downturn along with all the steel mills that went bankrupt in Cleveland.

The suburbs don't make Detroit, the city does. And every part of Detroit is losing people, from the city, metro, region and state. Most people don't know Grand Rapids and I don't think most people would consider it significant. I think it's actually on par with Ohio's Dayton, though even smaller. Dayton is mid-size and most people do not think of it when thinking about significant cities in Ohio. Grand Rapids, incidentally, is also losing people. Your opinion, but I think GR is significant and it is a very nice city with some top notch companies (i.e. Amway, Steelcase, Herman-Miller), also one of the great conservative cities. Although they lost small amount of population (8,000 peo. since 2000) like many midwest cities, the metro area has a population of 775,000 people. If you include nearby Holland (another great city) and Muskegon the area population is 1,325,000.

My point is not to say that every Ohio city is doing well. Both our cities and those in Michigan face challenges, to be sure. However, Michigan overall is clearly in worse shape right now. Ohio is still growing, Michigan is not. Ohio has lower unemployment (all 3-C metros are lower than the national average), a larger GDP, a higher per capita income, higher tourism rates, etc. Also, Ohio is set to benefit significantly more from the gas boom and other economic developments than Michigan is. I think cities like Cleveland and Youngstown will be very different places in the coming decades.In my opinion the lower unemployment rate in areas like Cleveland is mainly due to loss of population (i.e. less workers looking for job, same amount of jobs = lower unemploymemt rate), I'm actually suprized the unemployment rate in that area isn't much lower. I also think cities that are gaining population, and some of the transients not having jobs raises unemployment rate in those cities (i.e. Charlotte gaining 50,000 people ea. year and jobs not keeping up same pace puts unemplyment rate up a percent over national average).

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[exit18b]

Love - Cost of living, lack of traffic, great cultural / arts, world class medical care, friendly and bright future (yes), 3 major sports (trying being somewhere where u do not have them), major colleges and univ, good night life (theatre, bars, comedy clubs, jazz), cheap parking downtown

Opportunities - Winter weather, lack of water front development, national appeal

Look I have lived in the NY area, D.C., BMore, Detroit and now Cleveland. I love the smaller size of Cleveland w/o giving-up alot. Cost of living is the name of the game to me.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by ZnGuy

..

Many areas of country got hit in the 2000s, he even NE OH got hurt with autos downturn along with all the steel mills that went bankrupt in Cleveland.

True, almost everyone suffered some during the 2000s, worse during the latter half. That doesn't mean that the auto industry hasn't gone through a period of success. Getting government bailouts (which very few industries or companies got) isn't a sign of financial stability or long-term success. If the auto industry can keep it going, great, but I'm not going to hold my breath. American companies are benefitting right now because they have little debt, a recovering economy and the fact that Japanese competitors took a huge hit when the country was hit by the earthquake and tsunami.

Your opinion, but I think GR is significant and it is a very nice city with some top notch companies (i.e. Amway, Steelcase, Herman-Miller), also one of the great conservative cities. Although they lost small amount of population (8,000 peo. since 2000) like many midwest cities, the metro area has a population of 775,000 people. If you include nearby Holland (another great city) and Muskegon the area population is 1,325,000.

Yeah, sounds like Dayton, except I wouldn't call Dayton conservative.

In my opinion the lower unemployment rate in areas like Cleveland is mainly due to loss of population (i.e. less workers looking for job, same amount of jobs = lower unemploymemt rate), I'm actually suprized the unemployment rate in that area isn't much lower. I also think cities that are gaining population, and some of the transients not having jobs raises unemployment rate in those cities (i.e. Charlotte gaining 50,000 people ea. year and jobs not keeping up same pace puts unemplyment rate up a percent over national average).

That doesn't really mesh with the information, though. There are cities with much higher rates of unemployment, such as Detroit, that have had just as much population
loss, if not more, than Cleveland has the last decade. So why isn't Detroit's unemployment rate lower? Also, there are cities with high growth, low growth, flat growth and loss, all with different levels of employment, both high and low. It seems far more likely that employment rates are a product of overall economic health than merely population.

[QCongress83216]

Love: Cost of living, easy to get around, the sports teams and its fans who, like myself, have been there through good and bad times, the improvements, the culture, "Hot in Cleveland" TV show.

Hate: Negativity, the bad rep the city gets locally (citizens and The Plain Dealer) and nationally (Forbes and ESPN), not enough self-promotion of the city, lack of support for our local musicians. And, finally the inferiority complex has got to go.

For example, last year I ran across an article in Cleveland Magazine for the cover story of the show "Hot in Cleveland". They start off by saying they didn't get behind the show because, "Even if we had initially loved the show's premise, you've seen what happens in Cleveland when we get our pedestals out, right? Someone fumbles. Or gets indicted. Or goes to Miami." Then the article ends with, "Here's another thing the show gets wrong: The fictional Clevelanders seem unequivocally proud of their city, with no sign at all of the civic inferiority complex that we, in reality, have been festering for years." What kind of writing is that for an article that for a show that puts a positive spin on the city? That kind of misrepresents the citizens of Cleveland because there are folks that are proud of their city.