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You have that perspective because you're coming from a "cool, hip" city in Seattle so of course you're perspective is gonna be different. Seattle is constantly praised nationally because they have notable things such as Starbucks, grunge music and Microsoft. A lot of people who come from the Coasts have a different point of view of the Midwest in general. Most of from the Coasts people see Cleveland and the Midwest as backwards, flat, dull, industrial, some might even say it's not liberal enough. Not every city can or should be NY, LA, Chicago, Seattle, San Fran, etc. Even most delegates who came for the RNC felt that way until they experienced for themselves. You're basing on everything that you were used to in Seattle, and I think that's where you're making your mistake. You should be judging the city on its on merit and not comparing it to cities the you've lived in or traveled to.
A city revolving around Downtown isn't always a good thing either. For example, Chicago, I enjoy visiting, but their city revolves around the Downtown, but once you get beyond there and the North Side some of their neighborhoods are jacked up.
Yes I agree. If you want to live somewhere else, just go live there. If that's not possible you can either keep on playing this comparing game and never be happy ever, or just start living life. Especially close-minded to not even hardly know a soul in the city and already determine it sucks. Please.
You have that perspective because you're coming from a "cool, hip" city in Seattle so of course you're perspective is gonna be different. I'm not knocking that at all, we always need a fresh perspective. Seattle is constantly praised nationally because they have notable things such as Starbucks, grunge music and Microsoft. A lot of people who come from the Coasts have a different point of view of the Midwest in general. Most of from the Coasts people see Cleveland and the Midwest as backwards, flat, dull, industrial, some might even say it's not liberal enough. Not every city can or should be NY, LA, Chicago, Seattle, San Fran, etc. Even most delegates who came for the RNC felt that way until they experienced for themselves. You're basing on everything that you were used to in Seattle, and I think that's where you're making your mistake. You should be judging the city on its on merit and not comparing it to cities the you've lived in or traveled to.
A city revolving around Downtown isn't always a good thing either. For example, Chicago, I enjoy visiting, but their city revolves around the Downtown, but once you get beyond there and the North Side some of their neighborhoods are jacked up.
I wish I could see what others see in Cleveland but I don't (yet). True...I do compare it to other cities I've lived in and while I don't expect CLE to be like Seattle (and I'm actually glad it's not), I have been struck by a sort of emptiness/deadness to the downtown (maybe it's the season too). But overall cities on the east coast are a bit more industrial looking and in comparison to newer cities, can appear depressed. I am used to more street activity and amenities though so I guess I'm guilty of wishing CLE had more of that. However, I am not trying to rag on Cleveland, just give my impressions which I enjoy having confirmed or countered by people who live here. I don't think of CLE as backwards and life feels more real here than in Seattle which I think is positive. I think Seattle peaked a while ago and it's only getting worse there. I think Cleveland was great a long time ago and is possibly preparing for a rebirth but it's not quite there yet, although there is still much to enjoy here. It is a very different environment for me and as I've said, I'm still adjusting and I may find it suits me or maybe it won't.
Yes I agree. If you want to live somewhere else, just go live there. If that's not possible you can either keep on playing this comparing game and never be happy ever, or just start living life. Especially close-minded to not even hardly know a soul in the city and already determine it sucks. Please.
You are quite the accuser...you are putting words in my mouth as I've never said the place sucks. I've given my impressions and asked about certain things here that have been different from what I'm used to. I'm sorry if I don't think everything is great here right off the bat - it seems to have touched off a nerve in you. I find it interesting to compare and contrast cities and hear other peoples opinions. You are quite negative yourself about Boston, Chicago and European cities yet I haven't called you "insanely" negative. Get a grip.
I wish I could see what others see in Cleveland but I don't (yet). True...I do compare it to other cities I've lived in and while I don't expect CLE to be like Seattle (and I'm actually glad it's not), I have been struck by a sort of emptiness/deGadness to the downtown (maybe it's the season too). But overall cities on the east coast are a bit more industrial looking and in comparison to newer cities, can appear depressed. I am used to more street activity and amenities though so I guess I'm guilty of wishing CLE had more of that.
Cleveland has only 15,000 persons living downtown, and, yes, they don't linger outside in winter weather. Many of the cities that you are comparing Cleveland with have much greater downtown populations. The entire city has a relatively small density. Yet compared with the majority of American cities, Cleveland has a growing and substantial downtown population.
As for amenities, that is truly a ridiculous statement. Apart from a very limited number of cities, most cities don't offer anything comparable to Cleveland's downtown pro sports scene, the West Side Market district, University Circle with the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Cleveland Orchestra and much more, let alone Lake Erie and the great metro parks systems, Holden Arboretum and Cuyahoga Valley National Park.
It's fair to say that the frequency of some bus lines are limited, but, overall, few comparably sized cities offer a mass transit system as large as Cleveland with the significant bus and rail rapid lines.
Combined with its compactness and free downtown bus trolleys, I find it truly ludicrous to say that Cleveland's downtown isn't walkable. However, for you, someone who admits she is a poor walker and is used to very frequent bus schedules (although the downtown trolleys operate every ten minutes or so), that may be the perception.
The problem is that the perception of the hundreds of thousands of persons who visited Cleveland for the Republican convention were much different than yours. Someone who buys an RTA day pass and uses the downtown bus trolleys, simply won't have to walk very far to visit anywhere in the downtown district, University Circle, or the Market District.
However, what might be a five minute walk for many of us, sounds as if it might be a 10- or 15-minute walk for you. Is that accurate?
The fact is that much of downtown lies within a block of Euclid Avenue, which between the Healthline and downtown trolleys offers very frequent and even 24/7 mass transit service.
I just searched Google Transit to check on the options between Tower City and the Cleveland Public Library. There are 3 mass transit options that go door-to-door and take 8-10 minutes and it's a 10-minute walk. That's pretty typical for much of downtown, and I hardly consider those times of any city that isn't walkable.
I wish I could see what others see in Cleveland but I don't (yet). True...I do compare it to other cities I've lived in and while I don't expect CLE to be like Seattle (and I'm actually glad it's not), I have been struck by a sort of emptiness/deadness to the downtown (maybe it's the season too). But overall cities on the east coast are a bit more industrial looking and in comparison to newer cities, can appear depressed. I am used to more street activity and amenities though so I guess I'm guilty of wishing CLE had more of that. However, I am not trying to rag on Cleveland, just give my impressions which I enjoy having confirmed or countered by people who live here. I don't think of CLE as backwards and life feels more real here than in Seattle which I think is positive. I think Seattle peaked a while ago and it's only getting worse there. I think Cleveland was great a long time ago and is possibly preparing for a rebirth but it's not quite there yet, although there is still much to enjoy here. It is a very different environment for me and as I've said, I'm still adjusting and I may find it suits me or maybe it won't.
I didn't say you said that Cleveland is backwards, I was referring to most people from the Coasts as well as certain people from Chicago. What I meant by industrial, by Cleveland standards, is people still think Cleveland has a lot of factories and dirty. East and West coast cities are looked at as innovative and hubs of tech, finance, etc. when they say industrial. Besides Seattle, what other cities you lived in? Cleveland isn't a 24-hour city like NY, LA, Chicago, San Fran or Seattle so there isn't a lot of street activity 24/7. Cleveland revolves more around the biotech and health care industry rather than the tech industry like Seattle and San Fran. Plus, retail shopping is becoming obsolete because more people are shopping online, and major chains like Macy's, JCPenny and Sears are closing a large amount of stores across the country. I think you'll start to see more people Downtown once the weather clears up.
Cleveland has only 15,000 persons living downtown, and, yes, they don't linger outside in winter weather. Many of the cities that you are comparing Cleveland with have much greater downtown populations. The entire city has a relatively small density. Yet compared with the majority of American cities, Cleveland has a growing and substantial downtown population.
As for amenities, that is truly a ridiculous statement. Apart from a very limited number of cities, most cities don't offer anything comparable to Cleveland's downtown pro sports scene, the West Side Market district, University Circle with the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Cleveland Orchestra and much more, let alone Lake Erie and the great metro parks systems, Holden Arboretum and Cuyahoga Valley National Park.
It's fair to say that the frequency of some bus lines are limited, but, overall, few comparably sized cities offer a mass transit system as large as Cleveland with the significant bus and rail rapid lines.
Combined with its compactness and free downtown bus trolleys, I find it truly ludicrous to say that Cleveland's downtown isn't walkable. However, for you, someone who admits she is a poor walker and is used to very frequent bus schedules (although the downtown trolleys operate every ten minutes or so), that may be the perception.
The problem is that the perception of the hundreds of thousands of persons who visited Cleveland for the Republican convention were much different than yours. Someone who buys an RTA day pass and uses the downtown bus trolleys, simply won't have to walk very far to visit anywhere in the downtown district, University Circle, or the Market District.
However, what might be a five minute walk for many of us, sounds as if it might be a 10- or 15-minute walk for you. Is that accurate?
The fact is that much of downtown lies within a block of Euclid Avenue, which between the Healthline and downtown trolleys offers very frequent and even 24/7 mass transit service.
I just searched Google Transit to check on the options between Tower City and the Cleveland Public Library. There are 3 mass transit options that go door-to-door and take 8-10 minutes and it's a 10-minute walk. That's pretty typical for much of downtown, and I hardly consider those times of any city that isn't walkable.
We have already discussed walkability perceptions and though technically you can walk to many places in downtown CLE it's not as enjoyable (to me) as other cities where blocks are shorter and there is more going on at eye level. I can easily walk a mile in about 17-18 minutes and when it's a pleasant walk it's no trouble to walk more. I'm repeating myself but I consider Boston and Paris highly walkable cities with much going on in between point A and point B so that it's a pleasure to walk. Here I walked to Asiatown and went through desolate blocks to get there and it felt much farther than it probably was. This is my perception and experience - you can take it for what it's worth. There is nothing that needs to be proved here. Amenities? Perhaps Seattle spoiled me - there were coffee places every few blocks and tons of cafes and shops everywhere. I had about 5 Trader Joe's within a 5-6 mile radius with multiple bus lines to take me there. This place is a different animal and perhaps it's not fair to compare the two. I've already said that I think culturally Cleveland beats Seattle and I appreciate that. Can we all end this now and go back to original purpose of thread. Sorry for my part in hijacking. We should just agree to disagree about some things.
I didn't say you said that Cleveland is backwards, I was referring to most people from the Coasts as well as certain people from Chicago. What I meant by industrial, by Cleveland standards, is people still think Cleveland has a lot of factories and dirty. East and West coast cities are looked at as innovative and hubs of tech, finance, etc. when they say industrial. Besides Seattle, what other cities you lived in? Cleveland isn't a 24-hour city like NY, LA, Chicago, San Fran or Seattle so there isn't a lot of street activity 24/7. Cleveland revolves more around the biotech and health care industry rather than the tech industry like Seattle and San Fran. Plus, retail shopping is becoming obsolete because more people are shopping online, and major chains like Macy's, JCPenny and Sears are closing a large amount of stores across the country. I think you'll start to see more people Downtown once the weather clears up.
Believe me, I'm not looking for street activity 24/7 - I don't even go out at night very often. But I guess it just struck me that it seemed sort of empty downtown during times when I would expect to see office workers etc. and it made me question what was going on. I've lived in Boston, Seattle, Portland, OR, Denver, CO and visited other cities where there were just more people in the downtown, lots of office workers, shoppers etc and as I said, it sort of surprised and puzzled me. I had that "what's wrong with this picture?" feeling, hence many of my questions here. When I went into the gorgeous arcade building I expected to see more activity but it was so quiet (if it were Seattle it would have been filled with expensive shops etc. and probably only for the elite). I may have a whole other impression as spring approaches.
I wish I could see what others see in Cleveland but I don't (yet). True...I do compare it to other cities I've lived in and while I don't expect CLE to be like Seattle (and I'm actually glad it's not), I have been struck by a sort of emptiness/deadness to the downtown (maybe it's the season too). But overall cities on the east coast are a bit more industrial looking and in comparison to newer cities, can appear depressed. I am used to more street activity and amenities though so I guess I'm guilty of wishing CLE had more of that. However, I am not trying to rag on Cleveland, just give my impressions which I enjoy having confirmed or countered by people who live here. I don't think of CLE as backwards and life feels more real here than in Seattle which I think is positive. I think Seattle peaked a while ago and it's only getting worse there. I think Cleveland was great a long time ago and is possibly preparing for a rebirth but it's not quite there yet, although there is still much to enjoy here. It is a very different environment for me and as I've said, I'm still adjusting and I may find it suits me or maybe it won't.
You moved to CLE the last week of January. Summer into Autumn is much better. Give it some time. Think you're in shock-n-awe adjustment period now but, like you state, you may find it suits you or not.
You are quite the accuser...you are putting words in my mouth as I've never said the place sucks. I've given my impressions and asked about certain things here that have been different from what I'm used to. I'm sorry if I don't think everything is great here right off the bat - it seems to have touched off a nerve in you. I find it interesting to compare and contrast cities and hear other peoples opinions. You are quite negative yourself about Boston, Chicago and European cities yet I haven't called you "insanely" negative. Get a grip.
That's because I'm not insanely negative.
Someone needs to point out you're being intentionally stubborn. Sorry for interrupting any pity parties.never said I don't like boston either. I am just showing you that it's not this idealistic place you think. I've lived here 5 years and have worked at the red sox, freedom trail, and harvard. I have the Boston credentials. And a license to complain about it if I want (certain aspects are no good). I can't stand transplants to boston fresh from LA talking about how California is just so free spirited and how great the Mexican food is there and blah blah blah. Don't be that person is all I'm saying.
I made one comment about Chicago and one about europe. You've literally written pages about how you don't like Cleveland because of.... I don't know it's unclear. As far as i can tell, nothing actually can satisfy you. You're right, it's not seattle or boston or Paris or whatever. Thankfully. Every city deserves to be viewed as its own entity.
Someone needs to point out you're being intentionally stubborn. Sorry for interrupting any pity parties.never said I don't like boston either. I am just showing you that it's not this idealistic place you think. I've lived here 5 years and have worked at the red sox, freedom trail, and harvard. I have the Boston credentials. And a license to complain about it if I want (certain aspects are no good). I can't stand transplants to boston fresh from LA talking about how California is just so free spirited and how great the Mexican food is there and blah blah blah. Don't be that person is all I'm saying.
I made one comment about Chicago and one about europe. You've literally written pages about how you don't like Cleveland because of.... I don't know it's unclear. As far as i can tell, nothing actually can satisfy you. You're right, it's not seattle or boston or Paris or whatever. Thankfully. Every city deserves to be viewed as its own entity.
My "pages" about not liking Cleveland boil down to about the same 3 complaints which I keep reiterating as others respond. Basically, without going into more detail again, I've 1. complained or expressed surprise about a somewhat depressed look around parts of town/neighborhoods related to lack of people/activity/professionals 2. Bemoaned the infrequency of the buses which makes going places more difficult for me and 3. I mentioned it is spread out and therefore not as walkable as other cities I've been to.
I accept your point that I haven't been here long enough to make a full judgment but I think my sense of the place is fairly accurate. I've also said some positive things about the people and cultural amenities, that it is more real and so far almost hipster-free, and admitted it's been a kind of rough transition for me and that I am still adjusting. I have not tried to compare it to Seattle or Paris in order to find CLE lacking - I have merely pointed out that Paris is more walkable than CLE (as well as other places) and that Seattle has buses that run more frequently which I found helpful as part of what I like to do is go around to thrift shops for resale business and it's more difficult to do that without a car here.
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