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The problem with linking achievement to grades is that the school could be weak, grade inflation, etc. It has to be a combination of the 2, grades and test scores, if you are looking at college applications. We have a 4.0 student at our school that got a whopping 22 on her ACT--has never taken an AP class--you really consider her "high achieving" when we have 200+ other kids that take a full load of AP classes, 3-6+/year that have GPA's in the 3.5 range getting ACT's in the 26+ range. Tell me who the high achievers really are.
I just ran the Net Price Calculator for Dickinson, starting cost of $58,550 for a family of 4 earning $20,000/year living in a house they paid $50,000 and is worth $50,000. Net price to that family $150. Part of the aid is $5500/year in federal loans and $2500 in work-study the rest is Pell grants $5500 and a Dickinson Grant, $44,900. The kid can earn $150 over the summer mowing lawns.....for a week....
Not knowing your alma matter, can't really judge the validity or what other information you used but I do know that for low income students, state schools are NOT a good option, period.
I went to Tulane University. Sorry it took me so long to reply . . . kids, life, you know . . .
Well, I think there are two ways of looking at the student with the 4.0/22 at your school, one she did great at the level that she's on, or, she did great, but she's an underachiever because she didn't challenge herself. For me, I can't judge, I know nothing about her coursework. But, I think in a way, you kind of made a point for me. The average score on that exam is around 22. I will go out on a limb and say that had she taken a few honors classes, her score probably would not be much different. She could, have a high score on the reading portion, and a low score on math that brought her score down. We can only speculate.
But, frankly, I know absolute morons that had great ACT scores. One of the first things they teach in test prep for the ACT is that there is no penalty for guessing. I don't say that to mean that kids with 33s are guessing and lucking upon good scores. But I think a lot of high scores are just kind of inherent.
Also, Dickinson is a small school with a large endowment. Of course they can give out $45,000 need-based grants. It's also not an easy school to get into.
I went to Tulane University. Sorry it took me so long to reply . . . kids, life, you know . . .
Well, I think there are two ways of looking at the student with the 4.0/22 at your school, one she did great at the level that she's on, or, she did great, but she's an underachiever because she didn't challenge herself. For me, I can't judge, I know nothing about her coursework. But, I think in a way, you kind of made a point for me. The average score on that exam is around 22. I will go out on a limb and say that had she taken a few honors classes, her score probably would not be much different. She could, have a high score on the reading portion, and a low score on math that brought her score down. We can only speculate.
But, frankly, I know absolute morons that had great ACT scores. One of the first things they teach in test prep for the ACT is that there is no penalty for guessing. I don't say that to mean that kids with 33s are guessing and lucking upon good scores. But I think a lot of high scores are just kind of inherent.
Also, Dickinson is a small school with a large endowment. Of course they can give out $45,000 need-based grants. It's also not an easy school to get into.
The issue with the 4.0/22 is that sports were more important....and her mom freely admits she does most of her homework so she can participate in sports. She isn't a dumb kid, just has her priorities mixed up. The point being, GPA isn't the tell all for achievement.
Dickinson is not that hard to get into. Tulane is more selective and has a higher mid range ACT then Dickinson. I think the issue is you hail from the land where public schools rank in the 45-50th range for the US and I hail from a land where they rank #1. When the average ACT score at our school is above 24 and the average ACT score statewide is a 18....that is a big difference. Your "high achieving" student would be below average here.
Dickinson is one example, there are 100's across the country where a low income student with a 3.6 GPA and a 26 or better could attend for free or nearly free with merit and financial aid, period. State schools are not the place to do that. If you are assisting kids with college choices, and more importantly, paying for college, you should know and understand this. You are doing a disservice to your kids if you don't.
The issue with the 4.0/22 is that sports were more important....and her mom freely admits she does most of her homework so she can participate in sports. She isn't a dumb kid, just has her priorities mixed up. The point being, GPA isn't the tell all for achievement.
Dickinson is not that hard to get into. Tulane is more selective and has a higher mid range ACT then Dickinson. I think the issue is you hail from the land where public schools rank in the 45-50th range for the US and I hail from a land where they rank #1. When the average ACT score at our school is above 24 and the average ACT score statewide is a 18....that is a big difference. Your "high achieving" student would be below average here.
Dickinson is one example, there are 100's across the country where a low income student with a 3.6 GPA and a 26 or better could attend for free or nearly free with merit and financial aid, period. State schools are not the place to do that. If you are assisting kids with college choices, and more importantly, paying for college, you should know and understand this. You are doing a disservice to your kids if you don't.
Oh no, quite the opposite, I attended elementary and junior high in the best district in the entire state. The high school there has an average ACT around 27. Each year they have somewhere near 15 National Merit semifinalists and 15 -20 commended students. This year there are 29 finalists. The high achieving kids where I am personally from, would definitely not be average where you are. More than likely, the non AP, run of the mill college prep kids would probably be on par with your AP students.
I transferred to a neighboring district for high school, but even so, it was like 3rd in the state at the time.
The same can be said for the schools where I live now. I live near three top ranked universities (Duke, Chapel Hill, Wake Forest) the public schools here are bound to be good.
I think I said this, but you're kind of condescending. You also don't seem to notice I've been using past tense. I don't teach anymore. My job consists of making lunches, reading stories, laundry, cleaning . . . you know, the stuff stay at home parents do. However, because I have a love my grad school and I know the the admissions staff, I do take the occasional alumni interview for the University of Pennsylvania.
In the past, I was a independent college counselor. I am very familiar with Dickinson. I used to live in Pennsylvania. While it may seem that Dickinson is not very selective, I can assure you that it is. They admit around 35-40% of their applicants to make up for the fact that it is not the first choice for a lot of very smart kids. In other words, it's a bit of a safety school for kids applying to Haverford, Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, Kenyon, etc, etc. A kid with a 3.6/26 wouldn't get merit aid at Dickinson. They would get need based aid, but not merit based. It's right there in black and white on their site. They expect a 4.0 and SAT/ACT of 1350+/31+ to be considered.
But I also see that the average student load debt of the most recent class is 20K. Which means one thing, a large portion of kids attending Dickinson are what most of us would consider middle class. Otherwise, the debt limit would be much lower.
I fully understand what you're saying, but you don't understand what I'm saying. There is more to the equation than a 3.6 and 26 on the ACT. You're looking at the data in it's simplest form.
Oh no, quite the opposite, I attended elementary and junior high in the best district in the entire state. The high school there has an average ACT around 27. Each year they have somewhere near 15 National Merit semifinalists and 15 -20 commended students. This year there are 29 finalists. The high achieving kids where I am personally from, would definitely not be average where you are. More than likely, the non AP, run of the mill college prep kids would probably be on par with your AP students.
I transferred to a neighboring district for high school, but even so, it was like 3rd in the state at the time.
The same can be said for the schools where I live now. I live near three top ranked universities (Duke, Chapel Hill, Wake Forest) the public schools here are bound to be good.
I think I said this, but you're kind of condescending. You also don't seem to notice I've been using past tense. I don't teach anymore. My job consists of making lunches, reading stories, laundry, cleaning . . . you know, the stuff stay at home parents do. However, because I have a love my grad school and I know the the admissions staff, I do take the occasional alumni interview for the University of Pennsylvania.
In the past, I was a independent college counselor. I am very familiar with Dickinson. I used to live in Pennsylvania. While it may seem that Dickinson is not very selective, I can assure you that it is. They admit around 35-40% of their applicants to make up for the fact that it is not the first choice for a lot of very smart kids. In other words, it's a bit of a safety school for kids applying to Haverford, Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, Kenyon, etc, etc. A kid with a 3.6/26 wouldn't get merit aid at Dickinson. They would get need based aid, but not merit based. It's right there in black and white on their site. They expect a 4.0 and SAT/ACT of 1350+/31+ to be considered.
But I also see that the average student load debt of the most recent class is 20K. Which means one thing, a large portion of kids attending Dickinson are what most of us would consider middle class. Otherwise, the debt limit would be much lower.
I fully understand what you're saying, but you don't understand what I'm saying. There is more to the equation than a 3.6 and 26 on the ACT. You're looking at the data in it's simplest form.
It's right there in black and white on their website--Dickinson doesn't GIVE merit aid with the exception of about 8 scholarships. They have moved to a need based model. Run the NPC like I have suggested.....as well as the NPC for all the other LAC in PA and wherever you are now.....
How do any of the recent posts have anything to do with the topic of Pell Grant changes, really? It's a personal argument at this point. Maybe it should be carried out via DM?
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