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[quote=elchevere;61844250]That might have been the best advice an older cousin gave me….told me I needed to go to a top undergrad program (which I did, Cornell) and then I needed to get into a top 10 Law School (I didn’t). Decided to change my plans and go for a MBA (even though math wasn’t my strong suit), which worked out well for me following a successful tech career and early retirement…..9/10 lawyers I speak with told me I made the right decision.
The assumption built into this is that the only career in law that is worth having is working for a large law firm in a city somewhere likely doing corporate law or tax work.
Law may have lost its luster, but my observation is that there are too many people who look at it too narrowly. Other careers exist in law than working long hours for a big law firm and attempting to become a partner. I have colleagues who were able to land jobs at the state attorney general's office, the county attorney's office, or the city attorney's office and have put in thirty year careers ending with a paid retirement and benefits. The work they did was interesting and critical to their community.
Other colleagues went to work for smaller law firms in smaller places. This was generally more challenging, but worked well for a number of acquaintances. Salaries were not as large, but the work was often more pleasant than sitting in an office reading IRS regulations all day long and writing opinion letters about tax law.
Sole practice can be a terrific option for the right person. Its not for everyone, but you would be surprised at the opportunities that exist. A huge number of people in this country need a lawyer. Its a question of finding a way for them to pay for those services and than doing the work.
Law isn't for everyone and if you had a successful career in business more power to you. However, I am surprised at the number of posts from people who cannot see any other path forward than working for a big law firm. Its just not true.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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We can guess what could’ve and might’ve happened though I’m fairly certain I would have worked longer and more stressful hours in law without the guarantee of the benefits I accrued from 30+ years with the same tech corporation I worked for (fully vested pension, stock options, profit sharing, car allowance, company retiree medical and dental benefits at only $97/mo until age 65, full time paid for secretary, and paid travel and entertainment expenses—along with work from home the final 20 years)….wouldn’t have had an income cap, though no guarantee I would’ve been a “superstar” lawyer earning much more or even as much as I did. My oldest friend in Jupiter, FL is the rare exception (top securities attorney and admitted after his Junior year of college, early, to Columbia Law—which I’ve not witnessed happening to many people or anyone else) but not the average. Of course, there is no guarantee people last 3 decades plus with the same company nowadays.
[quote=markg91359;61844841]
Quote:
Originally Posted by elchevere
That might have been the best advice an older cousin gave me….told me I needed to go to a top undergrad program (which I did, Cornell) and then I needed to get into a top 10 Law School (I didn’t). Decided to change my plans and go for a MBA (even though math wasn’t my strong suit), which worked out well for me following a successful tech career and early retirement…..9/10 lawyers I speak with told me I made the right decision.
The assumption built into this is that the only career in law that is worth having is working for a large law firm in a city somewhere likely doing corporate law or tax work.
Law may have lost its luster, but my observation is that there are too many people who look at it too narrowly. Other careers exist in law than working long hours for a big law firm and attempting to become a partner. I have colleagues who were able to land jobs at the state attorney general's office, the county attorney's office, or the city attorney's office and have put in thirty year careers ending with a paid retirement and benefits. The work they did was interesting and critical to their community.
Other colleagues went to work for smaller law firms in smaller places. This was generally more challenging, but worked well for a number of acquaintances. Salaries were not as large, but the work was often more pleasant than sitting in an office reading IRS regulations all day long and writing opinion letters about tax law.
Sole practice can be a terrific option for the right person. Its not for everyone, but you would be surprised at the opportunities that exist. A huge number of people in this country need a lawyer. Its a question of finding a way for them to pay for those services and than doing the work.
Law isn't for everyone and if you had a successful career in business more power to you. However, I am surprised at the number of posts from people who cannot see any other path forward than working for a big law firm. Its just not true.
Last edited by elchevere; 09-05-2021 at 10:27 AM..
That might have been the best advice an older cousin gave me….told me I needed to go to a top undergrad program (which I did, Cornell) and then I needed to get into a top 10 Law School (I didn’t). Decided to change my plans and go for a MBA (even though math wasn’t my strong suit), which worked out well for me following a successful tech career and early retirement…..9/10 lawyers I speak with told me I made the right decision.
I must be in the minority but I love law practice as much as I didn't like law school. I also went to Cornell undergraduate also a non-top 10 law school, Boston University.
Law isn't for everyone and if you had a successful career in business more power to you. However, I am surprised at the number of posts from people who cannot see any other path forward than working for a big law firm. Its just not true.
Not only is it not true, it isn't likely - as the (competitive) pressure starts early i.e. the admission rate for the top twenty-five law schools is roughly 10%. The school one attends directly affects employment opportunities particularly relative to large (prestigious) law firms and one's salary/visibility in which to gain experience. It's seldom a career path in and of itself.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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Buddy of mine from my high school followed your exact path (class of ‘81 Cornell; Class of ‘84 BU)…nothing wrong with BU Law.
Duke told me to get work experience for a year+ so I went with Emory B-School right after undergrad though it was a Cornell alum whose desk my cover letter and resume found via shotgun approach that led to my first job cross country in San Francisco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
I must be in the minority but I love law practice as much as I didn't like law school. I also went to Cornell undergraduate also a non-top 10 law school, Boston University.
Law school can be a great career investment. It was for me.
However, too many people approach it in the wrong way. If your idea of "success" is that you have to land a job with a big law firm when you graduate that will immediately begin paying you a six figure salary than you are bound to be disappointed. Too many people expect that and even those lucky enough to land in such a law firm often regret it. The track to a partnership involves many, many hours of hard work sitting behind a desk in a field that leaves too little room for error.
I never seriously considered working for a large law firm. I did consider working for a government agency and I briefly did that. I became dissatisfied with the rigid structure and salaries that I felt were too low. I went to work for myself after another brief stint with a small law firm. I have never regretted that decision in over thirty years. IMO, sole legal practice is vastly underrated as a career option. You set your own hours. You decide what cases you will and won't take. You gradually over time create your own niche or specialty within the law. Amazingly, some of the people I went to high school with who live in my area made the very same decision and we are all remarkably at peace with the choices we made.
I will admit there were some tough moments. Business will fluctuate and you do not have a steady income. There may even be times you have to borrow money to meet payroll or pay the rent. You will occasionally represent a client that you cannot stand. However, at least, for me, those were transitory moments that I quickly passed through on my way to doing the work that I wanted to do and earning the living that I wanted to earn.
For the right person, a law degree and legal practice is still an excellent choice. I focus more on individual qualities than I do on education. Are you the sort of person who can go out and meet people? Are you willing to try again if you fail the first time you attempt something? Can you tolerate an income which is not always steady? Are you willing to work for months at something before it comes to fruition? Can you tolerate a degree of uncertainty in your life? If you can answer all or most of these questions "yes" than I submit being a lawyer is still a good career choice. Some people can't do it. I could do it and so could most of my friends. Out of it can come an independence in life that few will ever obtain. Out of it can come financial success and security. It has for me. Most importantly, out of it can come an actual love of the work you are doing and rare insights into people and life that I do not think most people obtain.
Those who evaluate law as a career choice, often need to see a larger picture than the one they first imagine.
No one is saying that you can'y find satisfaction or even that you need to make 6 figures right out of school. What they are saying is that have 6 figure student loan debt when you don't have a 6 figure salary is crushing a lot of young lawyers, especially since most people also need to eat and pay for a place to live. That situation in itself is demoralizing and will lead to job dissatisfaction. This isn't even a new issue, it has been written about and discussed for at least 20 years now.
No one is saying that you can'y find satisfaction or even that you need to make 6 figures right out of school. What they are saying is that have 6 figure student loan debt when you don't have a 6 figure salary is crushing a lot of young lawyers, especially since most people also need to eat and pay for a place to live. That situation in itself is demoralizing and will lead to job dissatisfaction. This isn't even a new issue, it has been written about and discussed for at least 20 years now.
I will say this: If you have to have a six figure salary immediately when you graduate from law school, I would choose another occupation. The only way you are going to do that is to get a job at one of those large firms. You are right about that.
Having said that, I was surprised at how much money I was making within a short time in my solo practice.
Not only is it not true, it isn't likely - as the (competitive) pressure starts early i.e. the admission rate for the top twenty-five law schools is roughly 10%. The school one attends directly affects employment opportunities particularly relative to large (prestigious) law firms and one's salary/visibility in which to gain experience. It's seldom a career path in and of itself.
Even if you do attend a top 25 law school, that is still no guarantee. I finished in 2009 and with that economy, few people got to go into biglaw. I had one friend who had a great summer associate position. The firm ended up going under and I don’t even think he found a job practicing law for several years after graduation due to the economy in his state. More people I know ended up working for government in some form. When I started, it seemed like most people even in my ultra low paying government job were either from good schools or on law review or a journal at a good law school. It was ridiculous.
I am not unhappy with my decision because I was a teacher before and hated every minute of the bureaucracy, but it is definitely not for most people.
Even if you do attend a top 25 law school, that is still no guarantee.
Agreed it's no guarantee in terms of a $180,000 to $200,000 starting salary, although it's (far) more common for Ivy grads (and generally speaking, possible for 'T14' grads as well). Granted, it's a small (highly-competitive) percentage; but there is no other profession which has the potential for as high of a starting salary (including medical students typically saddled with student debt as well).
Hence the reason many (potential) law students have an unrealistic view of personal opportunity, even though they (should) know the field is extremely competitive/saturated. One must graduate from a top law school as well as realistically ascertain what type of career they want to pursue (and how much they're willing to sacrifice the first few years to pay off school debt and/or build their resume). Else, more likely than not, they will find themselves drowning in regret and complaints.
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