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Parents and students need to do their own research and make sound decisions about finances and education.
A lot of parents are poor "advisors" that lack the intellect and experience to guide their children through these decisions. How do you account for the 1st generation students from lower class backgrounds who are attempting to break the cycle of poverty and advance into the middle class?
Expecting poor, uneducated, inexperienced parents to advise their children on the appropriate colllege/trade pathways is akin to hiring a high school senior to manage your retirement portfolio.
A lot of parents are poor "advisors" that lack the intellect and experience to guide their children through these decisions. How do you account for the 1st generation students from lower class backgrounds who are attempting to break the cycle of poverty and advance into the middle class?
Expecting poor, uneducated, inexperienced parents to advise their children on the appropriate colllege/trade pathways is akin to hiring a high school senior to manage your retirement portfolio.
I agree with you to a point. I don't think a lot of first gen students are at R1 institutions, which is what this thread seems to be about. I imagine that a lot of first gen students are at the local CC, the local state university, or have been recruited by another school and are receiving significant scholarship money. I do think more needs to be done to educate 1st gen college students about on-line for-profit universities such as Corinthian, etc., as well as to educate about salaries and student debt loads. I feel sorry for people who spends tons of money on rip-off programs because they don't know any better. I have zero sympathy for someone who should know better amassing 150K in debt for a vanity degree.
I agree with you to a point. I don't think a lot of first gen students are at R1 institutions, which is what this thread seems to be about. I imagine that a lot of first gen students are at the local CC, the local state university, or have been recruited by another school and are receiving significant scholarship money. I do think more needs to be done to educate 1st gen college students about on-line for-profit universities such as Corinthian, etc., as well as to educate about salaries and student debt loads. I feel sorry for people who spends tons of money on rip-off programs because they don't know any better. I have zero sympathy for someone who should know better amassing 150K in debt for a vanity degree.
I know plenty of first generation students that have gone to R1 institutions like, UA, UG, Auburn, UT, LSU, etc.. There is no need for students to consider for-profit institutions. These typically are not as well known and could possibly hinder a student’s ability to land a good job post-graduation. Research universities need to do just that - provide a graduate education for those that want to be researchers or enter academia. Others should be directed to regional universities which are much less costly in providing an undergraduate education. Those that want a technical degree should attend a community college. There are way too many students attending R1 institutions.
There are reasons for that. They have to be able to offer at least somewhat competitive salaries to what people would make in the private sector. You’re simply not going to get a business school, computer science, medical school, etc. professor at $100K when that salary for these applicants in the private sector might double, triple, or quadruple that. On the other hand, someone teaching anthropology, art history, or religious studies might not be able to make anywhere near that when starting a new job. There, a lower salary is appropriate. At least 20 years ago when I knew someone applying for tenure track positions in one of those fields, the starting salary was only slightly more than what you’d make starting as a K-12 teacher.
That was that case 10 years ago and even 5-6 years ago. But now? At the school I work for, we have had rejections and failed searches for the entire gamut of disciplines. Even the proverbial useless eaters of art history, etc... It was funny... I was on a search committee for an art history professor... I was shocked how few applied, and then our finalist backed out last minute because he got a job offer paying something like 10k more.
The shrinkage of the applicant pools was dramatic and happened seemingly overnight. Typically we'd get around 35-50 apps for any given faculty position and closer to 75-100 for the humanities types (half of those usually wouldn't be qualified though). Now it's about 15-20 for any position and has increasingly been <10. And a bunch of those will back out. We had 8 faculty openings last year and we were only able to hire 2.
My sense it two things are happening - 1) people are able to get a wide variety of jobs in a wide variety of fields now. It doesn't really matter what their degree is in. 2) Enrollment in all types of Masters & PhD programs has dropped but for humanities PhDs that drop has been drastic.
The problem is you and some others are likely looking at this from the viewpoint of an academician or someone closely-related to one. Most taxpayers are going to have a different view after they have all the facts - with a starting assistant professor making $130+ for 9 months (taking off in summers), teaching 4 courses a year, holding 3+4 office hours a week, and having a flexible work schedule OR a non-productive, tenured professor making $150k+ for 9 months (working far less than 40 hours a week), teaching 3-4 classes a year. The argument that assistant professors in.Business can make more in industry to start out is true in some cases, but in many cases, it is simply not, especially when you consider the total compensation package. Very few businesses offer a defined benefits package. Professors at many state universities can retire at 75% or more of their final pay (depending on years of service) with COLA adjustments for life, regardless of market returns. The taxpayer is on the hook for this. Your argument would be much stronger if you were taking about elementary and secondary teachers where their pay is usually inadequate. Regarding buildings, this money comes out of the state capital outlay budget, not the operating budget.
Whatever retirement they get is what the state gives; they're in the same system as state & municipal workers, police & fire, etc...
At an R1 they have to produce a significant research agenda that's highly competitive. Lots of hours involved in that. They are more accurately hiring researchers at those universities, not teachers. You're paying for the expertise, the same way you'd pay a consultant or something. You're not paying for a teacher per se. The knowledge level a professor has is their field is at least 3x what a typical k-12 teacher has, if not exponentially more.
Whatever retirement they get is what the state gives; they're in the same system as state & municipal workers, police & fire, etc...
At an R1 they have to produce a significant research agenda that's highly competitive. Lots of hours involved in that. They are more accurately hiring researchers at those universities, not teachers. You're paying for the expertise, the same way you'd pay a consultant or something. You're not paying for a teacher per se. The knowledge level a professor has is their field is at least 3x what a typical k-12 teacher has, if not exponentially more.
R1 universities are hiring primarily researchers but secondarily teachers; otherwise profs wouldn’t be teaching 2 courses a semester on average. Whether a non-tenured assistant prof puts in 40 hours in most weeks is questionable (granted he/she may work more if he/she is working on a research project), and more doubtful for a tenured prof. Your comparison with the compensation of municipal workers, police, fire fighters, etc., is not a good one. Many of these workers are relatively poorly paid, so a good compensation package, including a defined benefit plan is justified. Most professors, and especially tenured profs at R1 institutions are extremely well paid, given their job duties, and thus such things like a lucrative DBP are not as valid.
That was that case 10 years ago and even 5-6 years ago. But now? At the school I work for, we have had rejections and failed searches for the entire gamut of disciplines. Even the proverbial useless eaters of art history, etc... It was funny... I was on a search committee for an art history professor... I was shocked how few applied, and then our finalist backed out last minute because he got a job offer paying something like 10k more.
The shrinkage of the applicant pools was dramatic and happened seemingly overnight. Typically we'd get around 35-50 apps for any given faculty position and closer to 75-100 for the humanities types (half of those usually wouldn't be qualified though). Now it's about 15-20 for any position and has increasingly been <10. And a bunch of those will back out. We had 8 faculty openings last year and we were only able to hire 2.
My sense it two things are happening - 1) people are able to get a wide variety of jobs in a wide variety of fields now. It doesn't really matter what their degree is in. 2) Enrollment in all types of Masters & PhD programs has dropped but for humanities PhDs that drop has been drastic.
Many Ph.D. programs, such as Business and Engineering, are dominated by foreign students. Why is this? My guess is that it has to do with admission standards. Entrance scores on the GRE and GMAT have been raised so high over the years that it automatically locks many American students out. Why is a topic for another thread. So, what we have in many cases, are foreign Ph.D. graduates who don’t have a good command of English getting an academic position, usually at R1 institutions and providing inferior teaching (albeit, many are very good at research). As I noted in another post, R1 institutions hire and promote based primarily on research. Parents need to be aware when they send their kids to many large research universities, there’s a pretty good likelihood, they will be in one or more very large classes with hundreds of other students, possibly being taught by someone they may not be able to understand, but is a good researcher.
I’m not surprised by some of the comments that have been made. Face it: many professors, especially non-tenured ones have a plum job, making 6 figures, working part-time, with flexible hours, with relatively little oversight by the department head. Taxpayers need to demand reform and accountability in state-supported institutions.
I’m not surprised by some of the comments that have been made. Face it: many professors, especially non-tenured ones have a plum job, making 6 figures, working part-time, with flexible hours, with relatively little oversight by the department head. Taxpayers need to demand reform and accountability in state-supported institutions.
They not part time, they're full time researchers on top of teaching classes and whatever services the college requires.
They have to get 10-14 years of education post high school to do the job. Even on the fastest of tracks, they can't start their careers until well into their 30s. 30-31 is the youngest one could possibly start and that assumes a direct line after high school into college for bachelor-master-PhD. Most of the "young" profs I've known were mid 30s.
You also don't get to choose where to live. You have to go where the few jobs open any given year are.
The national average salary for tenured prof is 104k, so half are making less than that. Even if they were making 200k, that would be a drop in the bucket of the multi-billion budgets of universities like UNC Chapel Hill. 1200 tenured profs × 200k = 240M. Their budget is $4B.
They not part time, they're full time researchers on top of teaching classes and whatever services the college requires.
They have to get 10-14 years of education post high school to do the job. Even on the fastest of tracks, they can't start their careers until well into their 30s. 30-31 is the youngest one could possibly start and that assumes a direct line after high school into college for bachelor-master-PhD. Most of the "young" profs I've known were mid 30s.
You also don't get to choose where to live. You have to go where the few jobs open any given year are.
The national average salary for tenured prof is 104k, so half are making less than that. Even if they were making 200k, that would be a drop in the bucket of the multi-billion budgets of universities like UNC Chapel Hill. 1200 tenured profs × 200k = 240M. Their budget is $4B.
Not sure where you’re coming from, but I have seen many examples of tenured professors at R1 universities (and regional universities to a lesser extent) making $$120-130k+ (not uncommon for tenured business and engineering profs to make $150k+) doing little to no research, holding around 3-4 office hours a week, etc. I encourage you or anyone else to walk the halls where faculty offices are located and see how many faculty are in their offices on any given afternoon. Your rebuttal is going to be they’re working from home. Some are, many are not. At most universities, salaries along with associated benefits are not an insignificant part of the total budget. Taxpayers have a right to demand accountability.. This is already starting to happen in states like Florida, and I suspect will become more prevalent in other states.
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