[Beeker2211]

Originally Posted by blakesq

So now it is "snake oil" for the Government to take less of our money, and reduce burdensome regulations? According to liberals, common sense is snake oil. I weep for our country.

Common sense says that if there's a fire, water will put it out. The issue is if there is a grease fire which water will compound the problem.

I just don't want a race to the bottom, which is what the other states tried to accomplish to disasterous affects. The states being held up as examples are, for lack of a better term, economic failures that put the entire function of the national economy in danger of total collapse. If they were doing so much better than us in economic outcomes I'd agree, but the only thing they seem to have going for them is a shady term of "growth." Funny thing is that CT has had pretty sustainable economic growth during the whole period, less of a fallout, and the growth was better enjoyed by a greater number of people on all levels of the economic spectrum. So maybe what you think is important (lowered taxes, less regulations) doesn't really matter as much as you believe and possibly could be counter productive to the combined economic goals we have as a society.

[bobtn]

Odd, Beeker, Malloy has talked of a 22 year drought, which coincides well with Weickers income tax-which was hailed as a temporary salvation. The BLS data backs Malloys assertions. By the way, yesterday, another Shelton mfg (Bassett) announced they are California bound, with 200 jobs lost.

So if your rosy picture wre true, why is there no empirical, mathematical data to back it up. Jane-smith wised noted, Math is our friend. Corps never approve major outlays without full documentation, yet when a gov like Weicker or Malloy promise things will get better if we do X, and they don't, there is no accountability.

Beeker, Is your notion of nirvana simply giving the state unions whatever their little hearts desire, the heck with the credit rating. If so, watch the neighbors take Ct corps. Cuomo, a liberal, is cutting NY pension costs big time, as did Christie. In a few years, Ct will NOT be allowed to roll over its debt-that is what the credit rating drop did. Why not prepare now, instead of 10 minutes before the first budget not using borrowed money?

PS, When Ct government voluntary attrition-which is next to ZERO-goes past the private sector rate, it would mean cuts went too far. That rate is mathematical proof the public employees still have a cushy gig, when one accounts for the value of both pay and benefits, even after recent, fairly minor cuts.

[kidyankee764]

I agree that it's riddled with opinion/slant and paints a doom and gloom picture. I agree with some of it/disagree with some of it, but can definitely separate fact from opinion.

[bobtn]

The reality is, those race to the bottom states Beeker talks of, will likely host the majority of UTC jobs in the near future. They bought $21 million worth of Georgia land during the UTC strike. I'm sure it was not for the view. States are not taking austerity cuts for the fun of it; there is a National Association of Mfg Red Book which ranks states annually on business climate, on dozens of attributes. Relo corps, who advise the movers and shakers what other states can do for their bottom line, swear by it and similar rating systems. 100% mathematical, that's the key, they use ZERO emotional attachment to notions of what government should do. That is what the shareholders properly demand, and that is the reason UTC measures and reports to analysts the percentage of jobs it has based in low vs high-cost states.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by bobtn

The reality is, those race to the bottom states Beeker talks of, will likely host the majority of UTC jobs in the near future. They bought $21 million worth of Georgia land during the UTC strike. I'm sure it was not for the view. States are not taking austerity cuts for the fun of it; there is a National Association of Mfg Red Book which ranks states annually on business climate, on dozens of attributes. Relo corps, who advise the movers and shakers what other states can do for their bottom line, swear by it and similar rating systems. 100% mathematical, that's the key, they use ZERO emotional attachment to notions of what government should do. That is what the shareholders properly demand, and that is the reason UTC measures and reports to analysts the percentage of jobs it has based in low vs high-cost states.

Perhaps we should be looking at other areas of the economy to drive the future of Connecticut.

[Beeker2211]

Originally Posted by bobtn

Odd, Beeker, Malloy has talked of a 22 year drought, which coincides well with Weickers income tax-which was hailed as a temporary salvation. The BLS data backs Malloys assertions. By the way, yesterday, another Shelton mfg (Bassett) announced they are California bound, with 200 jobs lost.

As I've said before, once you take in self employment across the states CT ranked ..::edit::.. 10th. Actually pretty good. Frankly, I used to know the Governor and maybe he was using accepting rhetoric to push his agenda. I don't know why he used that statistic, but he's wrong:

http://cteconomy.uconn.edu/TCE_Issues/Fall_2010.pdf

Originally Posted by bobtn

So if your rosy picture wre true, why is there no empirical, mathematical data to back it up. Jane-smith wised noted, Math is our friend. Corps never approve major outlays without full documentation, yet when a gov like Weicker or Malloy promise things will get better if we do X, and they don't, there is no accountability.

State GSP growth: BEA News Release (GDP by State)

Total state GSP:
List of U.S. states by GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Children going hungry:
http://feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-...veSummary.ashx (pg. 11)

Manufacturing employment percentage:
http://jec.senate.gov/public/?a=File...d-a094446f23c2

http://www.nam.org/~/media/7F271F10D...t_by_State.pdf

Productive workforce:
The Most Productive States - MainStreet (5th)

I can go on but you get the idea.

The accountability issue is separate but low and behold CT came in 2nd least corrupt because of strong laws and enforcement.

Originally Posted by bobtn

Beeker, Is your notion of nirvana simply giving the state unions whatever their little hearts desire, the heck with the credit rating. If so, watch the neighbors take Ct corps. Cuomo, a liberal, is cutting NY pension costs big time, as did Christie. In a few years, Ct will NOT be allowed to roll over its debt-that is what the credit rating drop did. Why not prepare now, instead of 10 minutes before the first budget not using borrowed money?

The credit rating drop hit many states, and frankly investors haven't given the slighest credence to it. The infalibility of the credit agencies has at long last been clothed like the emporer it tried to appear to be.

Originally Posted by bobtn

PS, When Ct government voluntary attrition-which is next to ZERO-goes past the private sector rate, it would mean cuts went too far. That rate is mathematical proof the public employees still have a cushy gig, when one accounts for the value of both pay and benefits, even after recent, fairly minor cuts.

The unions took a big hit. That's without question (unless you're completely dehinged from reality, of course). Do state employees have comfy positions? I'm sure some do, but don't let the degradation of the private sector drag down everyone. Like I said, it's been a 20 year slide of private sector employment so instead of looking to who else you can bring down look to how you can lift others up.

[Beeker2211]

Originally Posted by bobtn

The reality is, those race to the bottom states Beeker talks of, will likely host the majority of UTC jobs in the near future. They bought $21 million worth of Georgia land during the UTC strike. I'm sure it was not for the view. States are not taking austerity cuts for the fun of it; there is a National Association of Mfg Red Book which ranks states annually on business climate, on dozens of attributes. Relo corps, who advise the movers and shakers what other states can do for their bottom line, swear by it and similar rating systems. 100% mathematical, that's the key, they use ZERO emotional attachment to notions of what government should do. That is what the shareholders properly demand, and that is the reason UTC measures and reports to analysts the percentage of jobs it has based in low vs high-cost states.

I'm sorry, but you NEVER state when manufacturing employment moves in. At least three companies have started to set up shop in CT... what are they for 20 points?

[bobtn]

Three.whoop de doo.how many jobs..dozens each perhaps...take a look at the WARN reports, and that offsets about 2 months of announced cuts. (With Bassett, Pfizer, and the casinos not even on those reports yet).

The bigger concern than Bassett should be UTC. That self employment you love revolves around large , locally based employers. I doubt Sikorsky would use them from Georgia, and even a reduced Ct Sikorsky cuts off a ton of supplier jobs locally. Now Ct may be able to turn UTC's ABC strategy around, or Ct can adopt a way to survive with large UTC job losses, but the latter would be like climbing Mt. Everest.

[Beeker2211]

Originally Posted by bobtn

Three.whoop de doo.how many jobs..dozens each perhaps...take a look at the WARN reports, and that offsets about 2 months of announced cuts. (With Bassett, Pfizer, and the casinos not even on those reports yet).

One actually had announced 200 jobs to start, perhaps more to come.

Originally Posted by bobtn

The bigger concern than Bassett should be UTC. That self employment you love revolves around large , locally based employers. I doubt Sikorsky would use them from Georgia, and even a reduced Ct Sikorsky cuts off a ton of supplier jobs locally. Now Ct may be able to turn UTC's ABC strategy around, or Ct can adopt a way to survive with large UTC job losses, but the latter would be like climbing Mt. Everest.

What? The self employment revolves around large employers? You want facts and figures but once you see, you cannot deny but only move the goal posts. Come up with your own statistics that are peer-reviewed and not from a daily paper, then we can have a discussion. But right now you're trying to badger me with null points and fallacies.

As for UTC... Sikorsky is constantly shedding and adding jobs (depending on contracts), their Security Instruments division isn't going anywhere, Pratt and Whitney may likely stay in East Hartford.

..::edit::.. You keep forgetting that some of these corporations go to the areas which you admire for free money, and once that's up they are gone. Or that brownfields could be put back into productive use in CT, or that the on paper savings of shifting production has not, I repeat, has not materialised at all for the vast majority of the outfits. Why are you so obsessed with courting them when their economic value is questionable at best, and negative at the modal level?

[bobtn]

BTW, I'm glad one new mfg is big enough to offset Bassett today. I looked at 2012 WARN reports, and there were several 3 digit job loss reports, which added up to a few thousand jobs. So 200 is a start. (And we know Pfizer is -1,100 within a year, Bassett -200, plus casinos most likely 4 figures due to Ma, and the 2 hospital mergers (Waterbury & NH) are most likely a 4 figure toll.which hopefully is delayed at least 1 year. A for profit hospital mgmt firm is buying the Waterbury duo, and even a Free market person like me is not a fan of what these piranhas often do)

But yes, Self employment is not worth much without selling to others, and some customers need to be large, in order to sustain far more mom and pops. That's a national, not local thing. The little fish serve the big fish, and they best have them around to feed.

UTC's announced ABC policy was Anywhere But Ct due to cost, Beeker (Hartford Courant detailed it well). Its been adding in several states, while Ct has seen a headcount drop. Should that not be worked on? Do you expect the Ga land to not end up 100% developed for UTC facilities?

By the way, the article JViello cited here has fabulous data, and the Hartford Business Journal is a well respected subset of dozens of business journals nationally run by the same parent corp. (Your wikipedia source made me chuckle.anyone can edit wiki at any time, making up whatever they wish. Not saying it was false, but its not protected from being falsified.) Business journals and magazines never have that problem. Their stats are trustworthy.

Your buddy, Malloy, btw, on job creation dearth used the BLS as the source-that same thing Obama uses to tout falling unemployment. Same source the government, NY Times, Washington Post, and all the trade journals use.