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You've clearly reviewed information I've not seen. Please share a link or two of your sources for what the hospital did, per you. The major networks haven't emphasized that at all.
Support needs to be withdrawn. Not to sound callous, but this girl is dead. Her family needs to bury her and grieve for their extraordinary loss. Medical care is for the living. She needs to be given her dignity.
Well said. The only thing I would add is the Court needs to be a Court with a judge who presides over courtroom trials and other legal proceedings and bows out here.
While we know:
1. Her parents aren't releasing her medical records
2. Grandmother was trained as a nurse. I don't know her licensure or experience. She wasn't happy with care. Is she qualified to judge? No disrespect intended. What is Grandma is an LPN who works with a Dermatologist or Rheumatologist in an office? She is the child's grandmother, but one more time, limited information.
3. There is no proof of malpractice currently. That can only be established when the records are released. And the family attorney will have a lot to prove since soundbites prove nothing.
4. Missing Pastor or Spiritual Advisor. Was one called or dismissed by the family?
5. Oakland Children's can't get info from the Receiving Hospital or transport team.
6. The patient has been examined, tested and imaged by three separate pediatric neurologists. Each concur she is brain dead.
7. The court is "dictating her remaining on the vent." I wonder if the judge has seen her or can appreciate letting her go with dignity?
What have I forgotten or don't know in the above list?
I agree. This child didn't request this out - of control situation with the court. Please Judge, say enough is enough.
It is my understanding that when a person is determined to be brain dead it is common practice to remove life support almost immediately. Sometimes, a hospital may delay a few hours or, in extreme situations, maybe a day if there are family members on route to the hospital, but certainly not a "few days".
According to the reports, the hospital did explain the condition and did explain that the child could not stay on life support indefinitely. The mother just refused, and is continuing to refuse, to believe the doctors that said that her daughter had died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtn. States Resident
germaine, another thorough post. Do you have a link to what you posted above that you would please share? This is the first time I've heard some of what You wrote.
Thanks in advance
MSR
My knowledge of "common practice" in brain death situation comes from my general background and I do not have a link. As I stated previously, my husband used to be an attorney who dealt with medical malpractice cases (originally on the side of the hospital and doctors insurance companies and later representing patients & their families) and had several cases that involved brain death.
Although, my family has not directly been involved in a situation like this, sadly, I know two families who had somewhat similar situations of a child being declared brain dead. The information that they shared with me regarding how quickly a child is removed from medical equipment was the same as I recalled from when my husband was an attorney.
Although, it is a limited sample, it appears to be consistent. After all of the legal and medical procedures are followed to determine brain death, the artificial involvement of machines or drugs are removed fairly quickly once family members are notified and all are present. As one parent told me, "We knew that S. was already gone and with Jesus, but being able to hold her hand and talk to her (when the machines were removed) was very comforting to us." The other parent also shared something very similar. From what these parents told me, they were kept very well informed by the hospital staff about "what was going on" with their child at every step along the way.
2. Grandmother was trained as a nurse. I don't know her licensure or experience. She wasn't happy with care. Is she qualified to judge? No disrespect intended. What is Grandma is an LPN who works with a Dermatologist or Rheumatologist in an office? She is the child's grandmother, but one more time, limited information.
3. There is no proof of malpractice currently. That can only be established when the records are released. And the family attorney will have a lot to prove since soundbites prove nothing.
MSR
I've also been following a similar post on all nurses. One of them was able to look up and found a nurse in CA by the same name who was an LVN. Can't confirm if this is Jahi's grandmother...
She was talking and ate a popsicle post-op (per multiple news sources). Another family commented she was give burger (Huff Post & Sacramento Bee). Was the family following the post-op instructions given by her medical team? It's not unheard of for patients and family members or ignore medical advice.
At this point it's hard for me to believe anything the family says which is what most of the news is reporting. The hospital due to privacy reasons is limited in what they can say. Some of the information the family has released has been misleading or even lies.
I've also been following a similar post on all nurses. One of them was able to look up and found a nurse in CA by the same name who was an LVN. Can't confirm if this is Jahi's grandmother...
She was talking and ate a popsicle post-op (per multiple news sources). Another family commented she was give burger (Huff Post & Sacramento Bee). Was the family following the post-op instructions given by her medical team? It's not unheard of for patients and family members or ignore medical advice.
At this point it's hard for me to believe anything the family says which is what most of the news is reporting. The hospital due to privacy reasons is limited in what they can say. Some of the information the family has released has been misleading or even lies.
This is such a tragic situation. My perspective is that I am a person of faith, and a Respiratory Therapist that currently works in a sleep lab testing and treating patients with obstructive sleep apnea. I have also been the health care worker who performs (under doctor's orders naturally) a patient's terminal wean/extubation off life support. I view taking someone off a ventilator for the final time as providing them a gift, a gift of freedom from a body that has irreversibly failed them.
I can understand why the court extended the date Jahi is to remain on life support to January 7. I suspect that the judge is trying to get past the holiday season, Christmas & New Year's. Holidays are emotionally loaded, and I can understand allowing the family to get past this to make this decision. One of my aunts suffered a TBI from a fall just before Christmas a number of years ago. She was not brain dead, but the neurologist recommended the family take her off life support. The family decided to give her a little more time, and wait until after the holidays. She did indeed wake up, and has been living a reasonably quality life since. But she was NOT brain dead!! Brain injured yes. The brain can reroute neural pathways, but if there is no healthy live tissue it cannot. Brain tissue does not regrow.
I am concerned about the family's attitude concerning prayer healing Jahi. I hope that their spiritual advisor's are not telling them to pray, pray and Jahi will be healed. Sometimes you can pray, and pray and pray with all of your being, and God does not answer your prayer in the way you want. God answers prayers in his own way, not ours. Sometimes God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers. I do not want Jahi's family ever to feel any guilt for not praying hard enough for Jahi's restoration to health. Sometimes God's answer is not what we want to hear. But hear we must.
There's a lot of questions I have concerning Jahi's care, starting with such an aggressive surgery on a young girl. I can understand the indications for removing the tonsils and adenoids, but a UPPP? That's a pretty involved surgery on someone who is so young. It also is not all that successful in treating Obstructive Sleep Apnea. We have a had a number of patients for whom the UPPP was not successful in treating their OSA and they end up on CPAP or BiPAP.
The family's story about the cups of blood all over Jahi's room post surgery is disturbing. I don't know if this true or not. It sounds strange to me. I can't imagine a medical staff allowing a patient to bleed out in such a manner. If she was bleeding so profusely, she needed to go back to surgery STAT to see what was going on down there. An artery nicked perhaps? Again, speculation on my part.
Lastly, I'm concerned about the long term care facility in NY that is willing to take Jahi. It's called New Beginning Center in Medford NY. They haven't been in business very long, and were founded by a woman who was a hairdresser whose father suffered a traumatic brain injury. It looks like they are in need of money to complete the building of their facilities. Why would the States of CA and NY allow this transfer is beyond me. Does this facility smell a big legal settlement for the family, and they want to get a cut of it, or even most of it, if they end up providing care. Again, this is a big red flag for me.
My thoughts and prayers are with Jahi's family to realize what they must truly do. Jahi's soul has already departed, and it's time to release her body.
Two separate Children’s physicians determined that Ms. McMath was brain dead. In addition, at the request of the family, three additional independent physicians-- unaffiliated with Children’s and either selected by or approved by Ms. McMath’s family/next of kin--examined Ms. McMath. Each confirmed the diagnosis of brain death.
....
Members of Ms. McMath’s medical team have met repeatedly and at length with Ms. McMath’s mother and other members of the family. They have explained Ms. McMath’s complete lack of brain activity and its significance, answered the family’s questions, and supported them as they have attempted to come to grips with this tragic situation.
-The family has also received support from social workers on a daily basis.
....
-Children’s chaplain has provided support and prayers for family on a near daily basis since 12/11.
-Child Life professionals have provided support to siblings.
....
A full week after death, Children’s has determined that the time has come to stop providing mechanical support to Ms. McMath’s body. Accordingly, on December 19, 2013 Children’s advised Ms. McMath’s family/next of kin of their intent to discontinue all mechanical ventilation and any other medical intervention soon.
Last edited by ncsualum2004; 01-01-2014 at 11:15 AM..
Reason: .
My knowledge of "common practice" in brain death situation comes from my general background and I do not have a link. As I stated previously, my husband used to be an attorney who dealt with medical malpractice cases (originally on the side of the hospital and doctors insurance companies and later representing patients & their families) and had several cases that involved brain death.
Although, my family has not directly been involved in a situation like this, sadly, I know two families who had somewhat similar situations of a child being declared brain dead. The information that they shared with me regarding how quickly a child is removed from medical equipment was the same as I recalled from when my husband was an attorney.
Although, it is a limited sample, it appears to be consistent. After all of the legal and medical procedures are followed to determine brain death, the artificial involvement of machines or drugs are removed fairly quickly once family members are notified and all are present. As one parent told me, "We knew that S. was already gone and with Jesus, but being able to hold her hand and talk to her (when the machines were removed) was very comforting to us." The other parent also shared something very similar. From what these parents told me, they were kept very well informed by the hospital staff about "what was going on" with their child at every step along the way.
They are good common sense points that family members had to deal with, regardless of how tragic and emotionally painful.
In my experience ICU work hard to give families closure.
I've also been following a similar post on all nurses. One of them was able to look up and found a nurse in CA by the same name who was an LVN. Can't confirm if this is Jahi's grandmother...
She was talking and ate a popsicle post-op (per multiple news sources). Another family commented she was give burger (Huff Post & Sacramento Bee). Was the family following the post-op instructions given by her medical team? It's not unheard of for patients and family members or ignore medical advice.
At this point it's hard for me to believe anything the family says which is what most of the news is reporting. The hospital due to privacy reasons is limited in what they can say. Some of the information the family has released has been misleading or even lies.
Great post and links. I've opted not to post the brain death declaration exam earlier, but I think you made the right call. I wonder if the judge understands what you've shared, or has even read tests and criteria?
I personally found your first link very interesting. I've seen the second link many times - it's great others can understand more thoroughly.
For me, the first link is more interesting both because of the content and comments. I found the comment from a reader how the legal system had failed the teen. I agree with that comment.
I, too, find myself not listening or reading info just from the family given their restrictions and refusal to allow all her medical records to be released.
Thanks for the links, KaaBoom. Info I hadn't seen from others. Of course it can't be verified without her medical records. Still, I believe these links are helpful when considering "community standards." And these are probably major sources of information for many in The Bay Area, including Judges and others.
Important for the hospital and all the providers to have this info as who knows, maybe a news source will be sued if every detail can't be verified and confirmed with medical records and testimony of others.
MSR
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