Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am talking about more than just living in reduced circumstances. The Jewish religion/culture is a different set of circumstances than what I described. Not the same!
This society has created an underclass that has different morals and behavior norms. It started with the founders of this country believing that it was OK to deprive certain humans of their liberty, and when this was resolved to some extent, to treat them as 2/3 of a man, for legal purposes. The cycle of dependency was perpetuated by the creation of housing projects that warehoused the poor and perpetuated the culture of depravity (habitus). Due to the prevailing culture of poverty, it is difficult to break out of one's habitus to learn the middle class field.
Bourdieu's Habitus and Field
Habitus : the manner in which group culture and personal history shape the body and the mind, and as a result, shape social action in the present. (likened to a “feel for the game”)
Field (the game itself) The social world consists of “fields” of practice with unique sets of rules, knowledges, and forms of capital.
But is basic human decency and civilized behavior, with an emphasis on nonviolent behavior (except when needed for self-defense) just reflective of the middle class? Is it really a "field of practice with unique sets of rules"? Seems to me that it's pretty universal across countries, cultures, ethnicities, races not to attack others!
And let's say that you are right about the cycle of dependency and prevailing culture of poverty. That's existed since "certain humans" were freed. Why are we now seeing such an increase in violence and other crime?
As for the knowledge and capital that is denied to non-middle class people, I have to say that most seem to covet and to an extent share middle class material values....so maybe there isn't as big a difference between people as you'd like to think. It seems that most of us want, beyond the basic human needs, toys and symbols of wealth/keeping up with most people/having what celebrities have, whether it's designer handbags, expensive athletic shoes, jewelry, etc. The only difference is not that some people don't know the rules, just that they aren't willing to follow them (like get an education) to attain them. So they resort to theft and violence in an attempt to get what they want, whether it's something material or to momentarily raise their self-esteem by attacking someone else.
There were nasty fights, sometimes with someone getting a jaw broke that I witnessed, but compared to the hateful violence I see today it just didn't happen as often as it does now. Due to the larger population as someone said? Perhaps to some degree, however its more likely due to the other issues I described above.
And there's another issue in play but some would deem it too controversial to acknowledge in this forum. This place is for tea and crumpets it appears. But these issues aren't fixable until they are acknowledged, discussed and addressed.
I think what's going on that makes it different today is that we as a society have made a serious and indeed necessary attempt to integrate. For example we just had an eight-year term of a black President. It's certainly not 100% successful and it is messy. But it is necessary to avoid the kinds of violence encountered in Europe, where there is almost no-holds-barred warfare by their segregated groups against the native Europeans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcat22
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmm0484
This society has created an underclass that has different morals and behavior norms. It started with the founders of this country believing that it was OK to deprive certain humans of their liberty, and when this was resolved to some extent, to treat them as 2/3 of a man, for legal purposes. The cycle of dependency was perpetuated by the creation of housing projects that warehoused the poor and perpetuated the culture of depravity (habitus). Due to the prevailing culture of poverty, it is difficult to break out of one's habitus to learn the middle class field.
But is basic human decency and civilized behavior, with an emphasis on nonviolent behavior (except when needed for self-defense) just reflective of the middle class? Is it really a "field of practice with unique sets of rules"? Seems to me that it's pretty universal across countries, cultures, ethnicities, races not to attack others!
And let's say that you are right about the cycle of dependency and prevailing culture of poverty. That's existed since "certain humans" were freed. Why are we now seeing such an increase in violence and other crime?
I was not aware that this attack had a racial element. I suspect that one of the reasons for the relative calm in the past, as was hinted about above, was the fact that there were real, immediate consequences for misbehavior. There was corporal punishment, an immediate call to parents, and possible arrest and juvenile incarceration. Anyone who remembers the otherwise awful 1974-5 hit "Smoking in the Boys Room" by Brownsville Station (I think) knows the drill. By the time of my little dance with the "bicycle chain boy" in June 1972 things had loosened but not the perception. Now, every kid knows that, to quote Clockwork Orange language term "tolchok," (link) if they "tolchok" someone nothing happens. In part that may be from society's decision to "go easy" on groups that are perceived to be disadvantaged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcat22
The only difference is not that some people don't know the rules, just that they aren't willing to follow them (like get an education) to attain them. So they resort to theft and violence in an attempt to get what they want, whether it's something material or to momentarily raise their self-esteem by attacking someone else.
The dirty little secret is that most employment that teens and young adults can get don't pay well. Drug dealing, in which violence is inherent, is far more lucrative.
Part of it is upbringing.
Lack of discipline.
Lack of consequences for actions.
Always Giving in to children for whatever they want.
Not being nosy into children's affairs.
Not policing what they do on computers, music they listen to or video games they play.
Part of it video games people used as baby sitters.
Overpopulation has SOME to do with it, but we were overpopulated when I was growing up as a boomer in a school where 35 or 40 kids to a tiny classroom with ONE teacher {no assistant} was the norm.
"johhny you have a 5 minute time-out" doens't work. And "we use our INDOOR voice now" doesn't work.
The Bible had it right "spare the rod, spoil the child".
Now, some parents DID get abusive with their discipline and beat their children {I know I was on the receiving end} in the 50s 60s and maybe into the 70s, but an occasional smack on the flesh of the behind with a hand {NOT a leather belt, leather strop,wood paddle or other device, and only once or twice} is in order sometimes.
This "we don't hit our children" and "taking away any consequences for actions" is what is failing these days.
ALso, Many video games these kids use are VIOLENT in nature, giving kids the wrong ideas. TV doens't help.
Sure Pac Man ATE his opponents, but that is not a reality based game, "rock'em sock'em Kung Fu magic magic fighting" IS more realistic these days with realistic CGI "men" duking it out.
ANd unfortunately it's often easier for teachers and administrators to deal with the aftermath than to risk getting beaten by the violence of a kid who may these days, even with security, be packing a weapon.
Unfortunately I think it starts with my generation having kids,and wanting to give them everything {we} didn't have. Kids now have their own Separate bedrooms, personal privacy, private bathroom, their own phones, etc. ANd of course no discipline. SUre, 3 or 4 kids sharing a bedroom growing up and 9 people in a house sharing one bathroom was inconvenient, but I think it kept us on our toes more. And a LITTLE harder discipline din't hurt. SOmeone always knew what someone was up to. I know to shorten showers amongst his 6 kids, a neighbor would limit his kid's shower time to 10 minutes, do your stuff and get out was his rule, after 10 minutes he'd go down to the basement and shut off the water. Today that would be considered "cruel".
It has gotten out of control as the following generations have gotten carried away.
Part of it is upbringing.
Lack of discipline.
Lack of consequences for actions.
Always Giving in to children for whatever they want.
Not being nosy into children's affairs.
Not policing what they do on computers, music they listen to or video games they play.
Part of it video games people used as baby sitters.
Overpopulation has SOME to do with it, but we were overpopulated when I was growing up as a boomer in a school where 35 or 40 kids to a tiny classroom with ONE teacher {no assistant} was the norm.
*******
Unfortunately I think it starts with my generation having kids,and wanting to give them everything {we} didn't have. Kids now have their own Separate bedrooms, personal privacy, private bathroom, their own phones, etc. ANd of course no discipline.
I couldn't agree more. Even though I was an only child and thus, by default, had my own bedroom and except when company was over my own bathroom my parents knew what I was doing, when and why.My wife and I in practice run that kind of a house, though my wife's ideology is on the "liberal" side. We live in an upper-middle class area. Two of the children on a field trip wandered away from the Metropolitan Museum. Their own houses are pretty disciplined and they are honors level students (one goes to Cornell and the other to an even more elevated school) and my wife was trying to use them as an example that it isn't only minority children that get into trouble. I expressed the opinion that their parents weren't strict enough. I grew up with one of their parents and I doubt she'd be as strict as she ought to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi
ANd unfortunately it's often easier for teachers and administrators to deal with the aftermath than to risk getting beaten by the violence of a kid who may these days, even with security, be packing a weapon.
There are many threads about that. Let's just say I agree, and repped the post. I may when I'm less tired take this one up on POC or Great Debates.
Some people are just more violent than others. There really are "natural born killers" and there always has been. The "good" ones are archetype heroes like Achilles and Odysseus. The "bad" ones are serial killer criminals.
Keeping the good ones under control and the bad ones incarcerated is one reason we have societies.
Update: 14 year old charged and is court ordered to wear an electronic monitoring devise and must remain at home apart from going to school until another court hearing. The boy could receive up to 5 years in a juvenile detention facility.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
