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Seriously? You don't understand why I get to decide what's offensive to me? Ouch.
I don't know how I can make myself plainer.
If you make a statement that you've never offended someone, that's hogwash. Utter BS. In the examples I gave, people were "hurt" or "offended" by statements made, and this gives them a way to say, "This is not appropriate." That's the "ouch." You don't go around saying "ouch" & nothing more. It's a method of getting people who are hearing hurtful/offensive things to express it in a non-aggressive way, and way for the person who may have said something with good intentions to understand their words are hurtful. The thing about micro-aggressions is that they are not usually offensive to the majority. They could be. But the intention also doesn't have to be to hurt. It could be a lack of understanding. It could be lack of knowledge. But the "ouch-oops" model is actually putting the onus on the offended, to speak up and say, "this isn't appropriate." It's not coddling. It's a tool. And like any tool, it can be mismanaged. Are there people using this framework in a silly way? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean it isn't useful. And it doesn't mean it's always successful. But it can be. And the reason we need to learn skills like these is because we don't live in a sterile/padded perfect utopia. Learning how to express oneself and to disagree are highly underrated skills.
yes, you can decide, of course! That's how a free society works/should work. And it certainly isn't for me to tell you what is offensive or not. I understand with full clarity what you said in the last post, you gave specific examples using "Jane" that you found offensive/insensitive. I got it. I think you missed the point I made in my last post however and it's this......I find it interesting/ironic you judge what others say as problems/insults. Again, your post example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi
"Mary, we gave you a short schedule because we know you need to get home to your family." At the fore, many people would say that was thoughtful. But it wasn't. It was said to someone to justify shorter hours (thus less pay) on the assumption that she had to be home to take care of husband & kids, but she was not the only parent--she was the only woman. That is an "ouch" moment, what the intent of this language is trying to get at. "I love how your hair looks! Let me feel!" Sounds like a compliment. But to a total stranger it is creepy and annoying, and a lot of black people experience this on a regular basis. Harmless? Who gets to determine that?
As for your question in regards to your who "gets to determine that" as "harmless" or not? Well, apparently you. And your view determines what everyone should find insulting or not, "micro aggressions", etc. And that's fine if you see someone who wants to let someone go home early as bad/insulting. But realize others, like myself, may see it as just being nice and not reading into it to what I see as a non-sequitur extreme level.
As for your statement of "If you make a statement that you've never offended someone, that's hogwash. Utter BS." I never said such a thing. Again, you seem to like taking me out of context so let me repeat once again what I stated on the topic:
Well, out of the gate, I respect other people/wouldn't say things to cause an "ouch!" as that's the way I was brought up. Doesn't mean I agree with all views/their views, certainly not, but even if I'm totally against someone's views or beliefs/don't believe in them, I wouldn't say nasty things to get an "ouch!". Now if someone gets belligerent/rude/says rude things to me, I'll tell them where to go and how to get there, sure, I'll stand up for myself. Certainly wouldn't give them an "ouch" as that just seems non-sequitur/most bizarre/an odd response.
Notice this line in particular Now if someone gets belligerent/rude/says rude things to me, I'll tell them where to go and how to get there, sure, I'll stand up for myself.
So if you want to believe I go around insulting people/not believe what I say, hey, more power to you....what can I say. CD is a forum to express our views and opinions....knock yourself out with your predefined prejudices/beliefs.
What I find rather ironic again from someone like yourself that claims to be so sensitive to others, given your "Jane" example to a degree that I think is, well, interesting, yet telling someone like myself that my approach is "BS" while not even quoting me accurately.....all I can say is thanks for a bit of humor there leebeemi!...you might have me rethinking the safe space/"ouch"/"oops" thing to hide from judgemental meanies like yourself.
If someone insulted/offended me, I don't see how the reply of "oops" to my "ouch" would appease me in any way. It's like saying "My bad." That sounds like a very watered down, insincere, thoughtless apology/acceptance of one's guilt in doing something wrong. If college students are just programmed to automatically say "oops" will they really be processing what they did to cause the "ouch?" A two year old could be taught to say "oops" anytime the parent said "ouch" or "no"...but would they really be developing or EVER develop any insight? Or true remorse?
In my 63 years perhaps I should have said "ouch" more instead of trying not to react when someone offended me. The lack of acknowledgment of an offense perhaps didn't serve me or the offender well. But on the other hand, if someone does say ouch often (not sure how "often" would be defined---once an hour? day? week? month?), then perhaps that person is very easily offended and is in a reactive mode to see much as offensive. I could start speaking up more and saying ouch when offended, but if the reply is just an automatic "oops" I'm not sure it would be worth my while.
The two O words are cutesy, but maybe some transgressions should be "whoops." Or better yet, the old school route of apologizing....
In reading the 20-page diversity and inclusion guide from the University of Arizona, I have found more than a couple spelling errors: respectfull and your for you're. The people who wrote the guide are either college students or actual adult employees. Perhaps spelling should be attended to just as much as "microaggressions." The guide is attributed to a PhD Vice Provost! Is it micoaggressive to think someone who earned a doctorate should be able to spell? And last year he was paid $214,000 a year!
One of the activities they think will help students to understand each other is to make collages! Collages are not just for elementary school anymore. Could be a whole new movement, maybe even a college major: collages in colleges.
Last edited by jazzcat22; 03-18-2017 at 02:58 PM..
yes, you can decide, of course! That's how a free society works/should work. And it certainly isn't for me to tell you what is offensive or not. I understand with full clarity what you said in the last post, you gave specific examples using "Jane" that you found offensive/insensitive. I got it. I think you missed the point I made in my last post however and it's this......I find it interesting/ironic you judge what others say as problems/insults. Again, your post example:
As for your question in regards to your who "gets to determine that" as "harmless" or not? Well, apparently you. And your view determines what everyone should find insulting or not, "micro aggressions", etc. And that's fine if you see someone who wants to let someone go home early as bad/insulting. But realize others, like myself, may see it as just being nice and not reading into it to what I see as a non-sequitur extreme level.
As for your statement of "If you make a statement that you've never offended someone, that's hogwash. Utter BS." I never said such a thing. Again, you seem to like taking me out of context so let me repeat once again what I stated on the topic:
Well, out of the gate, I respect other people/wouldn't say things to cause an "ouch!" as that's the way I was brought up. Doesn't mean I agree with all views/their views, certainly not, but even if I'm totally against someone's views or beliefs/don't believe in them, I wouldn't say nasty things to get an "ouch!". Now if someone gets belligerent/rude/says rude things to me, I'll tell them where to go and how to get there, sure, I'll stand up for myself. Certainly wouldn't give them an "ouch" as that just seems non-sequitur/most bizarre/an odd response.
Notice this line in particular Now if someone gets belligerent/rude/says rude things to me, I'll tell them where to go and how to get there, sure, I'll stand up for myself.
So if you want to believe I go around insulting people/not believe what I say, hey, more power to you....what can I say. CD is a forum to express our views and opinions....knock yourself out with your predefined prejudices/beliefs.
What I find rather ironic again from someone like yourself that claims to be so sensitive to others, given your "Jane" example to a degree that I think is, well, interesting, yet telling someone like myself that my approach is "BS" while not even quoting me accurately.....all I can say is thanks for a bit of humor there leebeemi!...you might have me rethinking the safe space/"ouch"/"oops" thing to hide from judgemental meanies like yourself.
What I find ironic is how you think I'm saying I'm so sensitive to others and trying to call me out on predefined prejudices and beliefs. Have you not figured out why I may have the perspective I do? The examples I gave were slightly varied examples of things that have happened in my workplace. So, there's that. I didn't make them up & decide they were problems. They were problems that have happened (one to me). Seriously, I'm not just pulling things out of the ether here.
My point was that if you believe that just by intent you have never caused another hurt or offense, you are deluding yourself. " I respect other people/wouldn't say things to cause an "ouch!" as that's the way I was brought up." We all have bias. We all approach things from our individual perspectives (of course). We have all said, done, behaved in a way that causes another injury, and it is often completely innocent--ie, there is no hurtful intent. A joke, a slight tightening of a grip on valuables,walking on the other side of the street, using a "cute" name for someone, etc. I know someone who is one of the sweetest people I've ever met. I saw her at a pot-luck once and she loudly exclaimed, "Oh, my favorite, ****** toes!" while reaching into a bowl of mixed nuts. Needless to say, she meant NO offense, honestly thought that's what they were called. But that's a highly offensive term. Should we not have informed her of that? Once she knew, she realized she shouldn't say that anymore. THAT'S an "ouch/oops." So, no, I don't think you are going around telling people hurtful things consciously.
Here's the thing: there are some of us out there that have been dealing with institutionalized bias for a long, long time. And do you know what happens when we complain? A lot of times people say, "You never said anything! How was I to know?" Fair enough! So here we have tools to help us speak up in a way that may be constructive. And that's the key. If my coworker has been calling me "Sugar" & I've never told him I don't consider it professional and I'd like him to stop, he's not going to ever stop. Is he doing it to consciously belittle me? I don't know, and I really don't care. But it is not a respectful address in the workplace, and I want it to stop. So I speak up. If I go on the attack and start accusing him of being sexist, I'm going to get nowhere. But the "ouch" approach allows me to say, "You know what--that is really a disrespectful thing to call me at work, and I'd like it to stop."
This isn't about protecting snowflakes. This is about being a grown up and telling people when they say something harmful. And being a grown up when told we've said/done something harmful and accepting responsibility. Again, what is wrong with that?
^ Then people should say exactly what you have in your examples leebemi. Not this stupid "ouch/oops" crap.
I would feel incredibly stupid having to say "ouch" and "oops" in conversation if someone offended me (which is rare because I'm really not easily offended but that's another issue people have...) or I apparently offended someone. What are we, 2? I wouldn't follow this stupid protocol. These idiot administrations aren't telling me how to live or what to say, if I attended these schools. If someone chose to say "ouch" to me rather than explaining why something was sooo offensive, I'd laugh and walk away. Even if they were to explain it, the added ouch is just stupid.
If I do ever genuinely offend someone I hope they would explain it to me like an adult and not just go "ouch" like some petulant child.
This isn't about protecting snowflakes. This is about being a grown up and telling people when they say something harmful. And being a grown up when told we've said/done something harmful and accepting responsibility. Again, what is wrong with that?
Great, say it....but drop the ouch/oops nonsense. Like I've stated several time already and Jerseygirl415 just stated above, drop the 2 year old kindergarten approach nonsense to this. Seriously, these are adults now and we should be done with the coddling/taking a 2 yo kindergarten approach. And that's what wrong with "that". It's beyond embarrassing, the approach. I'd also ignore this nonsense if it was pushed on me if I attended a college like this...and certainly would scratch off the list attending a college with such a policy if I knew about such a policy ahead of time. College is where adults grow up, become independent, and start acting/dealing with adult problems independently without the "ouch" silliness. The irony is beyond the silliness of it all, it's a selfish approach....me me me....my feelings....and that's not surprising I suppose in this day of the chronically self-absorbed/it's all about me/my feelings/my this/my that.
And btw, judging by your last example of "Jane", your level of "harmful" is different than mine and your example again of letting someone go home early someone as an insulting event is certainly not on my level of any where near "harmful". It frankly escapes me completely to draw such a conclusion. So there's a problem....who do you define/put in charge of the what's harmful/what's not in this day in age where it seems everyone/anyone is offended by something and if everyone doesn't follow their definition of offensive, they are WRONG? You're getting into the book 1984 territory here. And we are there already with this nonsense. I feel bad for people going to college today with all this safe space, coloring book time to escape reality, ouch/oops, the perpetually offended, shout down/cause violence to speakers the student body doesn't agree with, etc....I really do. And I really feel sorry for the future bosses who will be having to supervise/work with these types. It will be a night-mirror.
Totally appropriate lesson---------------------------for kindergartners. That's only just in case whoever is tending them at home forgot to teach them what to do about their feelings when they feel emotionally hurt.
The fact that this has to be addressed at all at a college level says we've lost the battle to educate our kids well. Other than that college level communication should focus on logic and leave the emotional aspects of living to therapists, spiritual guides, and theater professionals.
This is probably true in other areas of adult life as well. Letting one's emotions rule one's head is never a good way to run a business. A healthy person learns he needs to put the hurts of life into perspective. People who don't learn this make a mess of their lives and the lives of others. People who learn it become the strong among us.
I went to college in the Sixties when everybody was getting their feelings hurt. Heh. I don't remember any higher authority ever worrying about how we were doing at an emotional level. We struggled along figuring it out on our own.
Less suicides, less mental health hospitalizations. And surprisingly, considering the Sixties, even less drug abuse than now.
Quite frankly I'm deeply concerned about the number of adult children out there whose feelings have to be considered foremost before more practical common sense matters. Their fragility is frightening.
Totally appropriate lesson---------------------------for kindergartners. That's only just in case whoever is tending them at home forgot to teach them what to do about their feelings when they feel emotionally hurt.
The fact that this has to be addressed at all at a college level says we've lost the battle to educate our kids well. Other than that college level communication should focus on logic and leave the emotional aspects of living to therapists, spiritual guides, and theater professionals.
This is probably true in other areas of adult life as well. Letting one's emotions rule one's head is never a good way to run a business. A healthy person learns he needs to put the hurts of life into perspective. People who don't learn this make a mess of their lives and the lives of others. People who learn it become the strong among us.
I went to college in the Sixties when everybody was getting their feelings hurt. Heh. I don't remember any higher authority ever worrying about how we were doing at an emotional level. We struggled along figuring it out on our own.
Less suicides, less mental health hospitalizations. And surprisingly, considering the Sixties, even less drug abuse than now.
Quite frankly I'm deeply concerned about the number of adult children out there whose feelings have to be considered foremost before more practical common sense matters. Their fragility is frightening.
Unintended consequences of too much prosperity?
With one in college and one headed there, fortunately, most of the students know this is all a bunch of horse hockey from the PC police crowd. Pretty much every college has a mandatory class or session on this. The reality for most kids is "if I say or do something offensive, just tell me and I'll fix it." Most of them have their heads on straight and are worried about jobs and careers, not political correctness. So I do think this might get blow out of proportion by the small number of colleges where students go to get a degree in PC off their parents money. The rest of the students don't have time for it.
Hmmmm, I said ouch earlier because I was offended and no one said oops.
Just trying to point out the obvious that people can be offended by just about anything.
What if my religion tells me that I should be offended by a woman in public not having her face covered?
Should you apologize to me? What if I were "triggered" by it.
Gets to be a really slippery slope when you start picking whose values and opinions merit protection and whom should be apologizing.
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And your view determines what everyone should find insulting or not, "micro aggressions", etc. And that's fine if you see someone who wants to let someone go home early as bad/insulting. But realize others, like myself, may see it as just being nice and not reading into it to what I see as a non-sequitur extreme level. 
I wouldn't follow this stupid protocol. These idiot administrations aren't telling me how to live or what to say, if I attended these schools. If someone chose to say "ouch" to me rather than explaining why something was sooo offensive, I'd laugh and walk away. Even if they were to explain it, the added ouch is just stupid. 
