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Thanks TC. And...link?!? Carroll with 22 is nice to see; of all the publics listed they'd be either #2 or #3 in %age (have to check Coppell's and HPHS's class sizes). In fact, Carroll in %age terms might be ahead of Plano's West and Senior if they were combined, although clearly (as this thread has discussed) West is the current "winner" in the district's realignment.
I'm VERY curious how Flower Mound performed, given the fact they've been tops among non-magnet publics by a substantial amount the last few years. I wonder if the totals among the top schools have increased in part due to other districts emulating their "boot camp" format for potential high performers.
(I have mixed feeling about all that...on the one hand, it's nice to see more high scores on the tests, on the other I'm less-than-thrilled about the overall emphasis on testing these days and wonder if resources could be more effectively used in other ways. I know several posters have commented that much of FM's program relies on volunteers and again, I generally like it, but why not have more volunteers for art or general science education or whatever instead of "let's ace the PSAT". That last isn't a knock on FM but rather a knock on the nationwide emphasis on TestTestTest the kids)
Carroll did great and it's likely that their percentage is higher but so is their GDP. Add as many apartments as Plano and then we'll compare percentages.
Thanks TC. And...link?!? Carroll with 22 is nice to see; of all the publics listed they'd be either #2 or #3 in %age (have to check Coppell's and HPHS's class sizes). In fact, Carroll in %age terms might be ahead of Plano's West and Senior if they were combined, although clearly (as this thread has discussed) West is the current "winner" in the district's realignment.
I'm VERY curious how Flower Mound performed, given the fact they've been tops among non-magnet publics by a substantial amount the last few years. I wonder if the totals among the top schools have increased in part due to other districts emulating their "boot camp" format for potential high performers.
(I have mixed feeling about all that...on the one hand, it's nice to see more high scores on the tests, on the other I'm less-than-thrilled about the overall emphasis on testing these days and wonder if resources could be more effectively used in other ways. I know several posters have commented that much of FM's program relies on volunteers and again, I generally like it, but why not have more volunteers for art or general science education or whatever instead of "let's ace the PSAT". That last isn't a knock on FM but rather a knock on the nationwide emphasis on TestTestTest the kids)
I am curious too how Flower mound performed. They are low profile and not prompt in putting up their scores on their website even for other accolades.
Like I said before, the boot camp is not their primary reason of success. It takes a lot more grit and commitment beyond 1 week of boot camp from students to get past the 220+ mark.
My son was a NMSF in FMHS and having friends in Plano and other school districts, I have some observation that drives their NMSF numbers - Its the free ride, scholarships to colleges associated with NMSF. One interesting difference between Plano and Flower Mound top performers - May be its in the Asians or the social pressure in Plano, the Plano crowd is more inclined to apply and join a Ivy and pay $50-60K/ year whereas in Flower Mound, they'll mostly take the full ride or a college that gives most scholarship with a reasonable reputation. I know numerous folks in FMHS (includes my son) who got in Ivy's but choose to go elsewhere. BTW, there are 63 clubs/organizations in FMHS and 88 staff associated out of which only 2 are for PSAT.
Flower Mound values NMSF and provides resources like prep classes and full time guidance counselors for PSAT. However, they deliver and that's great. Plano has way too many students to afford all that.
Plano students have diverse finances and it reflects in their college choices. Most top achievers deny Ivy schools and go with affordable schools but ones with financial aid or wealth go for top schools. I don't see what's wrong with that but yeah some people want to live their dreams and they can. Good for them.
PISD has a joke that if you can think of a club, we have it. All noteworthy organizations have chapters here. That's a great advantage of having big student body. You never feel a shortage of like minded people.
Flower Mound values NMSF and provides resources like prep classes and full time guidance counselors for PSAT. However, they deliver and that's great. Plano has way too many students to afford all that.
Plano students have diverse finances and it reflects in their college choices. Most top achievers deny Ivy schools and go with affordable schools but ones with financial aid or wealth go for top schools. I don't see what's wrong with that but yeah some people want to live their dreams and they can. Good for them.
PISD has a joke that if you can think of a club, we have it. All noteworthy organizations have chapters here. That's a great advantage of having big student body. You never feel a shortage of like minded people.
The staff (including PSAT) i mentioned are not full time for these clubs/ organizations. They have their other daily jobs. I bet the same is for other schools including Plano. A 5 day Boot camp is not the only recipe for NMSF success. Most kids in Flower Mound or Plano go to prep classes like KD for 1-3 years of their high school.
I couldn't find the clubs/organization for other Plano high schools except Plano Senior which has 55 clubs/ organization with staff associated just like Flower Mound having 63 clubs/ organizations with substantially lesser enrollment than Plano Senior. From your posting it sounds like based on high enrollment and student body Plano schools have way too many clubs or extra curricular in addition to academics. I don't think Plano schools stand out in extra curricular activities compared to other good high schools in the area for a vast majority of their student body.
Plano schools are awesome and I respect them (having lived in Plano). With all the peer/social pressure and boosting I see on this forum for Plano schools, I expect better results. Other schools in DFW are catching up .I am not bashing Plano schools, but Plano boosters should tone down their glory.
Off year (mind you- still pretty salty for such a small school). Hockaday should be closer to 18-20. Last year we were off the charts (best in the metroplex). This year St. Marks is off the charts.
Watch out St. Marks- we are coming for you next year!
The staff (including PSAT) i mentioned are not full time for these clubs/ organizations. They have their other daily jobs. I bet the same is for other schools including Plano. A 5 day Boot camp is not the only recipe for NMSF success. Most kids in Flower Mound or Plano go to prep classes like KD for 1-3 years of their high school.
Of course it's not the only recipe, but it helps and it makes other districts take notice. FMHS is a great school (easily in the top 10 in all of DFW among non-magnet publics), but its NMSF numbers are the very best in DFW (again, assume I'm talking solely about non-magnet publics), and by a not insubstantial margin the last few years. BTW, this rocks for FMHS. I give them major props for this, above and beyond being a very good school overall.
Again, NOT speaking about FMHS in particular or any school but rather overall, I'm torn between A) SAT scores and NMSF being consistent, objective markers one can use to compare schools (with other factors taken into account as well, obviously), which means I and many others look to those often, BUT 2) a severe overemphasis on ALL testing (STAAR as well) throughout the entire education system in the US, starting at an early age (my kid had 3rd grade STAAR last year, and from the tone of the teachers you would have thought The Fate Of The World rested on her test score).
Quote:
Originally Posted by adixyz
Plano schools are awesome and I respect them (having lived in Plano). With all the peer/social pressure and boosting I see on this forum for Plano schools, I expect better results. Other schools in DFW are catching up .I am not bashing Plano schools, but Plano boosters should tone down their glory.
I'm going to take a minor issue with this. If you look at SAT averages (for one thing, and here goes my whole "but test scores aren't everything" followed by a reliance on...test scores, shoot me now), Plano still cranks out exceptional results with more diverse demographics than the other top schools. Highland Park is always on top, but we all know about HPISD's income/net worth numbers (an economically disadvantaged percentage the same as Blutarsky's GPA, "zero-point-zero"). The other schools mixed in with West and Senior are Carroll and Coppell, with the latter's economically disadvantaged ("poor", it's easier to type) percentage at just over 9% (I think Coppell, if anything, gets a bit overlooked regarding the strength of its schools. They are seriously close to Plano for metrics put up with a bit more diversity than HP or Carroll). Flower Mound HS has a "poor" percentage of only 2.9%, so yes, it should put up very good numbers, and Marcus is only 4.7%. (Keller is only 5%. Don't even get me started on Keller HS with metrics compared to demographics).
Plano ISD's edge over other schools may have narrowed slightly (although it's tough to tell, as the most recent numbers include the "writing" part of the SAT, which is going away in the next few years), but it still does an exceptional job with numbers right near the top and demographics that are at least slightly mixed. Even affluent Plano West has 12.8% "poor". Plano East is at 28%. As an aside, another notable school at 28% "poor" is JJ Pearce in Richardson, which is consistently top 10 in SAT average.
It's a small nit, and you've lived there so you know that. Also, on this forum most of the debates are about school districts and areas that the vast majority of people in DFW would be thrilled to live in. Even areas labeled "affordable" here are often beyond the reach of most people without making some significant sacrifices. This forum definitely skews high in income/net worth. A side effect of this is often ignoring or subtly (or sometimes not-so-subtly) looking down on areas that are prefectly respectable. A motivated kid with encouraging and committed parents can get a good education almost anywhere; yes, even places where the average SAT is not stellar (says the guy living in one of the fancy places. Between this and the test score thing, just call me a hypocrite and shoot me).
Plano schools are awesome and I respect them (having lived in Plano). With all the peer/social pressure and boosting I see on this forum for Plano schools, I expect better results. Other schools in DFW are catching up .I am not bashing Plano schools, but Plano boosters should tone down their glory.
Plano schools are working with many more minority students and economically disadvantaged students than most of the other top school districts in our area. According to Wikipedia ~ "41% of district students are White. Asian students and Latino students each are approximately 20% of the student body. 11% of PISD students are African American. Approximately 25% of PISD students are economically disadvantaged."
Plano East, the lower ranked senior high in Plano, has 28% ED and 60% minority enrollment.
Texas Schools to Watch > Home
The Texas Schools to Watch, a middle school program that identifies middle schools that are academically excellent, developmentally responsive, socially equitable, and structured for success, selected two Plano middle schools for recognition this year: Bowman Middle School and Murphy Middle School. Bowman has 65% ED, yet has been named a Texas School to watch.
Plano helps ALL of their students to achieve their potential. Not just Asian or upper class. That is why I champion Plano ISD.
You talk about other schools "catching up" but they should be way ahead if you look at the income levels, if income levels mean more in NMSF than school districts. I don't see other area middle schools on the Schools to Watch list. (the school has to apply, but people don't seem to be shy about promoting their local schools)
We all win when schools excel, and Plano doesn't limit excellent schools to only high income families. Again, THAT is why I promote Plano schools. Not Plano West, but ALL PLANO SCHOOLS.
Like I said before, the boot camp is not their primary reason of success. It takes a lot more grit and commitment beyond 1 week of boot camp from students to get past the 220+ mark.
My son was a NMSF in FMHS and having friends in Plano and other school districts, I have some observation that drives their NMSF numbers - Its the free ride, scholarships to colleges associated with NMSF. One interesting difference between Plano and Flower Mound top performers - May be its in the Asians or the social pressure in Plano, the Plano crowd is more inclined to apply and join a Ivy and pay $50-60K/ year whereas in Flower Mound, they'll mostly take the full ride or a college that gives most scholarship with a reasonable reputation. I know numerous folks in FMHS (includes my son) who got in Ivy's but choose to go elsewhere. BTW, there are 63 clubs/organizations in FMHS and 88 staff associated out of which only 2 are for PSAT.
Quote:
The staff (including PSAT) i mentioned are not full time for these clubs/ organizations. They have their other daily jobs. I bet the same is for other schools including Plano. A 5 day Boot camp is not the only recipe for NMSF success. Most kids in Flower Mound or Plano go to prep classes like KD for 1-3 years of their high school.
This isn't true (I speak from direct experience. I was NM from FMHS, my brother was in 2011 or 2012 cant remember, and my sister is in the program now. My two other siblings were in the program as well, but missed it by a few points)
There is a one week summer boot camp followed by a 9 week course when the school year starts (equivalent to a semester long course in a non-block school) that emulates a lot of the private prep courses you would see. Half an SAT is taken every week. The four Saturdays before the PSAT, you are required to take a practice PSAT on Sat mornings. To be invited to join the "PSAT Team" you must score above x on your sophomore PSAT (all sophomores are required to take it). The boot camp is undeniably the reason for their success. It is extremely well executed, and it goes far beyond 1 week.
The teachers involved may be volunteering for the program, but these are actual classes they teach, not clubs.
Quote:
Flower Mound values NMSF and provides resources like prep classes and full time guidance counselors for PSAT. However, they deliver and that's great. Plano has way too many students to afford all that.
If Plano wanted to do it, they could. I highly doubt the class size/resources between Plano and Flower Mound are that different.
I doubt there is much of a motivating difference between Plano and Flower Mound students. Many of the students at Flower Mound choose to go to UT, which doesn't give squat to National Merit anymore. There are definitely some (like me and my siblings) that view it as the easiest way to a full ride of college that we would have otherwise had to pay all or at least part of.
This isn't true (I speak from direct experience. I was NM from FMHS, my brother was in 2011 or 2012 cant remember, and my sister is in the program now. My two other siblings were in the program as well, but missed it by a few points)
There is a one week summer boot camp followed by a 9 week course when the school year starts (equivalent to a semester long course in a non-block school) that emulates a lot of the private prep courses you would see. Half an SAT is taken every week. The four Saturdays before the PSAT, you are required to take a practice PSAT on Sat mornings. To be invited to join the "PSAT Team" you must score above x on your sophomore PSAT (all sophomores are required to take it). The boot camp is undeniably the reason for their success. It is extremely well executed, and it goes far beyond 1 week.
The teachers involved may be volunteering for the program, but these are actual classes they teach, not clubs.
Thanks very much for the insight and explanation!
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