Dayton Affordability (Oregon, Washington, Grafton: best neighborhoods, transplants, sale)

[Amandarthegreat]

Since the other thread was shut down--I thought I'd open up a new one.

Picking up where the other left off--affordability in Dayton doesn't necessarily mean low-demand nor do high prices in places like LA, NYC, and San Francisco indicate a "better" place to live--it just means that those high prices are a bubble that has forced out regular, working people from those cities.

[Tarheel8406]

For clarification, I view affordability and low cost of living as largely synonymous. I'm also assuming that by affordability, you mean housing prices. My question is, 'What drove up housing prices in those cities in the first place?' To me, it seems like there's not enough supply to meet the demands of the people who are moving to those cities. To bring it back to the Dayton area, why is Dayton so affordable relative to the suburbs? In my opinion, it seems like the locals and the transplants tend to value the suburbs over the city, but I could be wrong.

[Amandarthegreat]

Originally Posted by Tarheel8406

For clarification, I view affordability and low cost of living as largely synonymous. I'm also assuming that by affordability, you mean housing prices. My question is, 'What drove up housing prices in those cities in the first place?' To me, it seems like there's not enough supply to meet the demands of the people who are moving to those cities. To bring it back to the Dayton area, why is Dayton so affordable relative to the suburbs? In my opinion, it seems like the locals and the transplants tend to value the suburbs over the city, but I could be wrong.

These places you mention used to be like Dayton not too long ago: NYC, for example was seen as a crime-riddled hellhole that no one wanted to live in (except Manhattan, of course). San Francisco was revitalized by artists in the 60s which helped launched redevelopment of downtown in the 1970s. What's driving up demand is that the children and grandchildren of surbanites that fled the cities are moving back into them. The age of sprawl has peaked, IMO.

[Tarheel8406]

And the same thing could happen in Dayton as well, but it hasn't (at least not yet), which brings us back to the original question: Why is Dayton so affordable? Because there's low demand.

[Natural510]

C'mon Amanda, supply & demand is what sets prices on the free-market. There's not really much more to it than that. There are people moving back to the core and southern areas of Dayton proper, but not enough to offset all the vacancies in the rest of the city....hence the affordability. It's not a reflection on what the town has to offer, only the expanse of the city being too large for its population. Same issue with most of the other "shrinking cities" over the past 50 years.

[Amandarthegreat]

Originally Posted by Natural510

C'mon Amanda, supply & demand is what sets prices on the free-market. There's not really much more to it than that. There are people moving back to the core and southern areas of Dayton proper, but not enough to offset all the vacancies in the rest of the city....hence the affordability. It's not a reflection on what the town has to offer, only the expanse of the city being too large for its population. Same issue with most of the other "shrinking cities" over the past 50 years.

Oh, I understand. It's just "demand" is being equated with "better." Of course the demand (and price) for housing in LA--for example--is high because otherwise they have a 2 hour commute each way.

[AndyMac1407]

I think everyone is right.

Here is an interesting article about the middle class being squeezed out of the cities, with the shift back to urban living. Something happening in a lot of large cities. But, isn't the case in Dayton, yet.

Many seek new homes near cities but are priced out

Dayton is at least 5 years, probably 10 behind the move towards urban living that larger cities have shifted towards. The Oregon District was the first residential neighborhood in Dayton to really take off. Grafton Hill, McPherson Town, St. Anne's Hill, and South Park are all good strong neighborhoods.

Dayton's problem is losing the educated millennials. The ones who would be looking to live in urban areas that may not be able to afford the Oregon District or want a 3 bedroom house to take care off. It's why developments like Student Suites and Water Street will be so important, even if they are only apartments. More people downtown creates more buzz, gets more feet on the street and raises demand for everything. When the demand downtown is exceeded is when we will start to see people pushing into the not so good areas of east Dayton and so on.

[Tarheel8406]

Originally Posted by AndyMac1407

Here is an interesting article about the middle class being squeezed out of the cities, with the shift back to urban living. Something happening in a lot of large cities. But, isn't the case in Dayton, yet.

Many seek new homes near cities but are priced out

There's also an article in the Washington Post that talks about how some millennials who were part of the move to gentrify DC have begun to be priced out as it's become less affordable: Millennials consider leaving Washington as the city becomes more costly. I don't see that happening in Dayton for a long, long time (if ever).

Originally Posted by AndyMac1407

Dayton is at least 5 years, probably 10 behind the move towards urban living that larger cities have shifted towards.

I'd say it's more like 15 to 25 years behind the curve, as a lot of American cities began the gentrification movement sometime during the 90s. That's one of the reasons why I was so shocked when I moved here a few years ago. Even the small city that I'm from in North Carolina began gentrifying its downtown in the late 90s. I moved to a few places before Dayton, and each of those places had more people moving into urban areas than into the suburbs. Then, I move to Dayton, where it seems like time has stood still.

Originally Posted by AndyMac1407

Dayton's problem is losing the educated millennials. The ones who would be looking to live in urban areas that may not be able to afford the Oregon District or want a 3 bedroom house to take care off.

This is precisely why I don't live in Dayton. I have no desire to own or rent a 3 bedroom home, when I'd be the only one living there. There were a few small condos available when I was searching for housing, but they weren't nice at all. I'm also not interested in living at a sub-par apartment complex like The Cannery or the St. Clair Lofts.

[AndyMac1407]

Originally Posted by Tarheel8406

There's also an article in the Washington Post that talks about how some millennials who were part of the move to gentrify DC have begun to be priced out as it's become less affordable: Millennials consider leaving Washington as the city becomes more costly. I don't see that happening in Dayton for a long, long time (if ever).

I'd say it's more like 15 to 25 years behind the curve, as a lot of American cities began the gentrification movement sometime during the 90s. That's one of the reasons why I was so shocked when I moved here a few years ago. Even the small city that I'm from in North Carolina began gentrifying its downtown in the late 90s. I moved to a few places before Dayton, and each of those places had more people moving into urban areas than into the suburbs. Then, I move to Dayton, where it seems like time has stood still.

This is precisely why I don't live in Dayton. I have no desire to own or rent a 3 bedroom home, when I'd be the only one living there. There were a few small condos available when I was searching for housing, but they weren't nice at all. I'm also not interested in living at a sub-par apartment complex like The Cannery or the St. Clair Lofts.

There are options downtown now for young people now, if you want to buy, 6th Street Lofts has 2 bedroom places, The Simms developments have 1 and 2 bedroom places, the McCormick building has 1 and 2 bedroom lofts. Apartment wise, Water Street is coming soon.

The ONLY good thing about Dayton being so far behind on urbanization is that as other cities are pricing people out, you can still find great deals on houses and buildings in some of the best neighborhoods in Dayton.

[CarpathianPeasant]

Originally Posted by Amandarthegreat

These places you mention used to be like Dayton not too long ago: NYC, for example was seen as a crime-riddled hellhole that no one wanted to live in (except Manhattan, of course). San Francisco was revitalized by artists in the 60s which helped launched redevelopment of downtown in the 1970s. What's driving up demand is that the children and grandchildren of surbanites that fled the cities are moving back into them. The age of sprawl has peaked, IMO.

"Sprawl" is not an accurate idea (IMHO).


From the beginnings of the nation the idea was to move to another area for more freedom (or whatever). That's why the Puritans left Engand. That's not quite the case with the Latin American countries, but it is with the U.S. where "Westward Movement" into the "frontier" areas to set up something new is an established historic principle.

There came a day eventually where there was no more "frontier." Meanwhile, the notion of getting out of a place (moving on frontier-like) was glorified not just by an occasional movie, but by radio stories and scads of television shows. And, building a new city right outside of an old one was certainly encouraged by things like the banks that were more willing to lend money in long-term loans on a newly built little box that might last until the mortgage was paid off as opposed to something needing hidden repairs that might cause a default on the loan.

Suburbia was sort of the last gasp of frontierism. People bought into it partly because they didn't know what they were getting into -- they only knew it was all new (and clean), they could get a loan, etc. Their kids grew up with the problems. Those returned to the city with pompous notions like us city folk were "quaint" and a few things even more insulting based on comments they had heard like, "Well, would you rather be living in the city?"

I hate to discourage you, but many of the "returnees" probably don't plan to make the city their permanent home. They're only planning to stay a while, like until the kids become school age or until some other point, ideally leaving with a profit on the sale of a house which has been graced with oddments that don't belong to the style, like decks, rather than upgrades of the wiring or the heating system.