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Old 11-12-2011, 04:14 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,400 posts, read 31,382,423 times
Reputation: 8093

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Well of course its a Issue! Even if the pups are to be spayed you still want to advoid drastic problems. I am more thinking it may have been seen around the Obedience/agility rings than the confirmation ring. Tho I do thank you for your input. I know her parents dont have blue or yellow eyes....nor any of the other pups they produced. Does that mean they should be bred cause they are perfect & she shouldnt cause she not? I more tend to believe I need to Learn more to advoid it happening in her pups! Which I am trying to do.

I did find this the other day! IF you look at the LAst couple of Pap Pics You can SEE the colors I talking about!

http://www.braylorspapillons.com/colors.htm
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Old 11-13-2011, 10:40 AM
 
Location: North Western NJ
6,591 posts, read 20,731,988 times
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ok katie if your truly esrious about this eye color is the last of your concerns...breeging her to a NORMAL eyes good standard male with no blue eyes or merls in his background shoudl correct the issue.

however...what you NEED to do if your certain you want to do this...

get her tested through otpi for pra-PRCD...this is a MUST in paps
you also want knees and elbows (and preferably hips) OFA tested too

given shes supposed to be your service dog you should be doing this anyway, putting all that time into a dog whos going to end up in agonoy trying to work due to luxating patellas or looksing its eye site ar 4 or 5 is silly, so get those tests done when she turns 2 years old...since she shoudnt be bred untill shes a minimum of 2 years this shouldnt be an issue...but it MUST be done if your serious about producing good uqality PET puppies...

(persoanlly i no longer care about the show rung if a dog is proving itself otherwise, they should be a good physicall exmaple of the breed yes, but im personaly more concerned about health testing...OFA and Opti testing are MINIMUM!)

that being said, rbeeding a servie dog is REALY silly...
its goingto take you about 2 years to train this dog MINIMUM (it usually takes longer than that to be considered a true working service dog, most are considered "in training" untill closer to 3 years old.

assuming though your going to consider her "fully trained" by the time shes 2...then you get her her ofa and opti testing (at least) and wait on those results...shes going to be about 2 1/2 or so before she can be bred...
during that time your going to go through 3 weeks of hell with her where she litereally CANNOT be used for working, shell be grumping, shell be distracted, other dogs would be drawn to you and during her standing phase shell be USELESS, so for the first 2 1/2 years every 6 months or so your without you service dog for about 3 weeks... ok then you breed her and all is fine for the first 30 days...then she starts showing, she needs to rest more eat more and essentially slows down (shes supposed to, its called pregnancy) so say goodbye to another month of service dog help, walks and trips outsid eof the home will be limited...
then she whelps...the first 4 weeks of the puppies life shes no longer your dog, shes the mother to those pups and she will leave them to go potty and eat and mabe take a 1/2 hour break here or there as they get to about 3-4 weeks old...so say goodbye to another month with your service dog. the next 4-6 weeks (toy breed dogs should ideally remain with their littermates untill 10 weeks of age minimum) shell be willing to spend a little more time away from her puppies but still will be way too distracted to even consider "working" she may have an hour or 2 here or there where shell happily leave the pups in the hands of a "sitter" but she wont be focused on you...so right now were 3 months without a service dog...
Puppies go home and things will start returning to normal...shell sulk for the first week at least, so say goodbye to most of the help that week too

now youve got about 3 months before she should be spayed (assuming you just want the 1 litter like you said), then say goodbye to your service dog for about 2-4 weeks while she gets spayed and recovers...

the dogs used for service dog breeding programs are NOT working service dogs, they cant be because its simply impracticle and down right impossible to properly train and work an intact female as a service dog...

if you want a litter out of your dog thats your buisness, but health testing should be mandetory for your girl and the stud...you need to have a waiting list set up before even doing the breeding, and you have to accept that if your going to be breeding her, her life as a service dog is OVER untill shes spayed! intact females do Not work well as service dogs...

been there, done that, it doesnt work!
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Old 11-13-2011, 12:08 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,400 posts, read 31,382,423 times
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IF she works out as a Service dog she Wont be bred til she 4 yrs old... 1 thing I am only allowed 2 dogs. Katie is 6 1/2 yrs old corgi adv life span is 8 yrs. Once she passes I plan the breeding of Lady much closer. IF she does Not make it as a Service dog then I plan to breed her at about 2 yrs old replacing her with a puppy UNLESS She doesnt pass the Health Tests! Thats a Must for both Service Dog & Breeding! Guess then I be back to finding another dog all together.
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:06 PM
 
Location: North Western NJ
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firstly i dont know who told you the average lifespan for a corgi is 8 years....more like 12-14 Years! 14 is the higher end of AVERGE but corgies have been known to live long past 14, its not unheard of for them to live 17 years.

another thing to keep in mind that a female not bred before 2 1/2 years old is MUCH more likely to encounter issues giving birth due to the fusing of the pelvis, between 2 1/2-3 yrs old is considered ideal to breed a toy breed dog, larger breeds 3-4 years is normal as they take longer to phsycically mature, but after 3 in a toy breed the risk of needing a c-section (which is already a high risk in paps) is incresed exponentilaly...

th good news is you have a VERY long time to put alot more reserch into what a resonsible breeder is and isnt...
and if your plan is to breed your "service dog" because of brains rather than beauty...why breed her at all if she fails as a service dog?!

im not trying to bring you down...
i just dont think youve put neer enough thought into this given the situation and her "purpose" in your life.
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:34 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,400 posts, read 31,382,423 times
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Mostly to have a fresh start with a newborn. Her breeder made several mistakes in the 4 months she had her [before I purchased her] Right now the biggest is she had her on blankets & allowed her no choices but to pee & poo in the pen. To this day Lady-bug thinks its ok to play in her own messes [in spite of numberous baths] and to potty on carpet & furniture! Well anything cloth. I thinking she be better in a home with no carpet. Another thing she held her all the time, anything that scared her she tell her was ok! Took 3 months before she stop cowering at my feet & peeing everytime some one came near her! Her brother became a biter cause her husband held him & allowed him to use him for a chew toy.... he just now was given to a home with no kids cause she was afraid he bite a kid. She offered to sell me another puppy [just now turning 9weeks old] BUT she refused to take Lady-Bug back! I was willing to trade pups so I have one Not Imprinted with bad behavour! I Did my research before I purchsed Lady-bug & 99% of breeders keep them til they are 12 weeks to get them well socialised & potty trained. This lady didnt do anything. Which really surprised me. I cant afford to buy another dog so I have to work with what I have.
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Old 11-13-2011, 06:29 PM
 
Location: North Western NJ
6,591 posts, read 20,731,988 times
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katie...
1: you need to stop blaming the breeder, at 12 weeks old the behaviours you desribe are NOT soley the result of bad breeding...

i will say for certain the breeder you got her from doesnt sound great (but you supported her anyway) but 12 weeks (4 months) of age is NOT old enough to be perminently imprinted with these bad habits...
they are a DIRECT result of YOUR work and effort...

sounds to me like you need ot go back to basics with THIS puppy...

you have an awefull long way to go before you can even think about 1: claiming this dog to be your service dog and 2: befor eyou can even think about breeding any dog...ut ESPECIALLY a dog with existing problems...
did you know its MOMMY DOG that teaches her puppies good potty habits...if you are having such a hard time training her, what makes you think her puppies would be any easier?!

this is the cold harsh truth...shes not only not a good phycial rep of the breed (given by her eyes) but shes obvisoulsy got some trianing and soclization issues too!

2: if you cant afford a new puppy what makes you think you can afford to breed?
an opti test runs uwards of $200
ofa xrays are anythign from $100-$400 PER FILM (that means 1 for knees , 1 for elbows and 1 for hips)
then theres the increased cost of food for the dam, an xray for a head count to confirm pregnancy and get a head count, whelping supplies, and lord forbid something goes wrong (which is likely) your looking at $1500-$3000 for an emergency c-section.
then theres the cost of a vet check for mommy afterwards to make sure she expelled everything, plus a vet check and potentially dewclaw removal for pups at 3 days of age
then theres the cost of raising the pups from when mum starts to wean them untill they are ready to go home, plus puppy shots, vet check before they go home ect...
and what happens should something happen and momma ot make it?! cost to bottle feed a litter EVERY 2 hours...
or if momma gets mastitis...then youve got medication and care for her AND bottle feeding the babies every 2 hours...

this is not a "cheap" venture and i always have $4000 set aside in a savings account before i breed ANY litter...


if your seriously interested in breeding, you need to get yourself a mentor and do this right...right now theres a long way to go and from how you describe your current little girl, shes not a dog id breed, shes form a sub par breeder, i doubt she has any gentic testing on her parents, i doubt you know her bloodlines...and as of right now shed done nothing to prove herself worthy of bringing more paps into the world...
if your going to do this you NEED to do it right...

theres way too much that can and DOES go wrong...

i have a frined who just lost a litter of 8 very rare bred puppies because the mother came down with mastitis and the breeder didnt catch it in time., all 8 pups drank infected milk before they even knew momma was ill (and through no fault of the breeder either, hes an amazing guy whos highly dediacted to his breed, incredibly doting of his dogs and been nvolved in the show/breeding world for over 30 years...
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Old 11-13-2011, 07:17 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,400 posts, read 31,382,423 times
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Foxy I was a Breeder for 15 yrs! Yes I know whats involved & more! Thanks for your consern. I also know that animals can be early imprinted with good as well as bad behavour! Thanks again for you consern!
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:12 AM
 
Location: IGO CA
350 posts, read 369,603 times
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Just curious ... as a 'service dog' what does your corgi do for you? What are you training the Papillon to do?
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:17 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,400 posts, read 31,382,423 times
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Corgi goes open draws & bring cloth I request.... She takes them Off me at nite she picks up things I drop & brings things I request by name Turns on/off lights Goes for my son she opens & closes doors One thing she does I never tought her is she get in bed & strech out with her back along my back/spine.... she does this Only when I am in Pain that uncontrolable or have mussle spasam There are other things she does thru out the day but hard for me to put them with any real command by me & since we got the puppy she even let me know when she awake has pottied [after the fact UGH] & other things! She helping train the puppy! Whe I ask the puppy for something she will nugg the item til the puppy gets it! After awhile she backs off & just watches! She also teaches the puppy what to be wary of but not afraid & what to be bold about esp in people. Things that I think Lady-bugs mom should have tought her! Anyway What the PAP does or will beable to do will depend... I may have to rearange things for her size & strenth.... Like I dont think she beable to handle the ref door or get anything out of it LOL But at 9 moths old & 10 1/2 inches about 8 pounds she doing good Hope this answered some questions! My 12" sheltie did a lot more than I train Katie [corgi] to do So I think the Pap will work out. When she done she be going Every where with me! Even Gro shopping!
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